The Cuban Missile Crisis: How many hits does North America take?

How many hits does North America take?

  • 0, US-Canada are completely unscathed

    Votes: 5 3.6%
  • 1-5

    Votes: 17 12.2%
  • 5-10

    Votes: 30 21.6%
  • 10-15

    Votes: 26 18.7%
  • 15-20

    Votes: 13 9.4%
  • 20-30

    Votes: 15 10.8%
  • More

    Votes: 33 23.7%

  • Total voters
    139
This seems to be a discussion that comes up a lot vis a vis Cuban war TLs, and I think its worth trying to pin down some sort of consensus that isn't just people talking past each other. According to "The Cuban Missile Crisis: A nuclear order of battle, October and November 1962," "The Soviet Union had approximately 42 ICBMs capable of reaching the United States, no SLBMs, a long-range bomber force of 150 Bear and Bison bombers that would have had to face a formidable US-Canadian air-defense system of fighter interceptors with nuclear air-to-air missiles, and BOMARC (Boeing Michigan Aeronautical Research Center) and Nike Hercules surface-to-air missiles."

In terms of bombers, I turn to Operation Sky Shield. According to "This is Only a Test," an article in the Smithsonian Magazine, "Had Americans known NORAD’s conclusions, they might have ducked and remained covered. Nearly one-half of enemy flights at low altitude had escaped detection. Of those initially detected, 40 percent then eluded tracking radar by changing their formation shape, size, or altitude. All told, if Sky Shield bombers had been Soviet bombers, no more than one-fourth would have been intercepted.
"During all three Sky Shields, friendly units had posed as the enemy. Yet the participants had acted too much like, well, the enemy: flying lower than preauthorized, and flying in patterns that deviated from their assignments, a practice that required scrambles of the reserve force to identify the "unknowns."
"The remote radar stations, though, considered the most vulnerable of the far-flung system, survived every simulated ground attack.
"The Distant Early Warning and the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System lines had been penetrated by enemy cells of up to four aircraft, despite flying inbound at the system’s best tracking altitude, 35,000 to 40,000 feet. Low-altitude flights had been defined as anything below 5,000 feet, but NORAD acknowledged that a real enemy would fly lower, where continental radar was weakest.
"The SAGE system tracked less than one-third the total mileage flown within radar coverage. NORAD had prepared for an assault with advanced electronic countermeasures, but it was the low-tech chaff that degraded SAGE—to the point where manual tracking was required, leaving the enemy obscured until well within bomb-release lines."
Now Sky Shield was combatting a mixed force of B-47s, B-52s, and RAF Vulcans which obviously wouldn't be what the Soviets were attacking with, but equally the knowledge that the Soviets would be flying lower than the aircraft in Sky Shield and that the most effective countermeasure was "low-tech chaff" makes for grim reading. It does not take much to get through for the US and Canada to have an unpleasant time.

In terms of missiles I know a lot less, interested to see the consensus on that.

So what does the board think, how many hits will the Soviets be able to land on North America?
 
From https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/...an_Missile_Crisis_Nuclear_Order_of_Battle.pdf comes some more information about Soviet ICBMs. The 42 ICBMs consisted of six SS-6s (R-7) and 36 SS-7s (R16). During the crisis two SS-6s were made ready by being fuelled and attaching a warhead.

"The SS-6 was the first Soviet ICBM.78 It was a one and one-half stage cryogenic, liquid-propellant missile capable of delivering a 10,000 lb reentry vehicle, (with a 2.8 megaton warhead) to a range of 9000 kilometers and had a CEP of five kilometers. They were too large to fit in silos and were fired from reinforced concrete launch pads. It took twenty hours to prepare for launch and could not be kept on alert for more than a day. The liquid fuel for the missiles was corrosive and toxic, could leak, and was potentially dangerous.

"The majority of the Soviet ICBM force during the crisis was the 36 SS-7s (R16), 26 in silos and 10 on open launch pads. The SS-7 Saddler was a two-stage storable, liquid propellant ICBM capable of delivering 3500 lb reentry vehicle to a range of 12,000 kilometers with a CEP of 1.0-1.25 nm. It was deployed in soft and hard sites. Reaction time under normal conditions was three hours for soft sites and five to fifteen minutes for hard sites."
 
The Soviets would probably get 20 - 25 ICBMs and 5 IRBMs from Cuba to fly successfully and at most 80 - 100 bombers get through. Assuming two gravity bombs per bomber, the upper limit is around 200 detonations if the bombers are extremely successful. If ADC is successful, the number of detonations could be less than 50.
 
Either way, America will get their hair mussed, speaking in Dr. Strangelove's language. Unless of course, the author of the TL decides that nukes hit more important city centres, which can result in more serious consequences.
 
Either way, America will get their hair mussed, speaking in Dr. Strangelove's language. Unless of course, the author of the TL decides that nukes hit more important city centres, which can result in more serious consequences.

I mean, “hair mussed” in the same sense as “couple million/few tens of millions” of losses. There’s almost certainly be an economic depression afterward, magnified by the fact that Europe and much of US-aligned East Asia is gone. It’d be a pyrrhic victory.
 
This seems to be a discussion that comes up a lot vis a vis Cuban war TLs, and I think its worth trying to pin down some sort of consensus that isn't just people talking past each other. According to "The Cuban Missile Crisis: A nuclear order of battle, October and November 1962," "The Soviet Union had approximately 42 ICBMs capable of reaching the United States, no SLBMs, a long-range bomber force of 150 Bear and Bison bombers that would have had to face a formidable US-Canadian air-defense system of fighter interceptors with nuclear air-to-air missiles, and BOMARC (Boeing Michigan Aeronautical Research Center) and Nike Hercules surface-to-air missiles."

In terms of bombers, I turn to Operation Sky Shield. According to "This is Only a Test," an article in the Smithsonian Magazine, "Had Americans known NORAD’s conclusions, they might have ducked and remained covered. Nearly one-half of enemy flights at low altitude had escaped detection. Of those initially detected, 40 percent then eluded tracking radar by changing their formation shape, size, or altitude. All told, if Sky Shield bombers had been Soviet bombers, no more than one-fourth would have been intercepted.
"During all three Sky Shields, friendly units had posed as the enemy. Yet the participants had acted too much like, well, the enemy: flying lower than preauthorized, and flying in patterns that deviated from their assignments, a practice that required scrambles of the reserve force to identify the "unknowns."
"The remote radar stations, though, considered the most vulnerable of the far-flung system, survived every simulated ground attack.
"The Distant Early Warning and the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System lines had been penetrated by enemy cells of up to four aircraft, despite flying inbound at the system’s best tracking altitude, 35,000 to 40,000 feet. Low-altitude flights had been defined as anything below 5,000 feet, but NORAD acknowledged that a real enemy would fly lower, where continental radar was weakest.
"The SAGE system tracked less than one-third the total mileage flown within radar coverage. NORAD had prepared for an assault with advanced electronic countermeasures, but it was the low-tech chaff that degraded SAGE—to the point where manual tracking was required, leaving the enemy obscured until well within bomb-release lines."
Now Sky Shield was combatting a mixed force of B-47s, B-52s, and RAF Vulcans which obviously wouldn't be what the Soviets were attacking with, but equally the knowledge that the Soviets would be flying lower than the aircraft in Sky Shield and that the most effective countermeasure was "low-tech chaff" makes for grim reading. It does not take much to get through for the US and Canada to have an unpleasant time.

In terms of missiles I know a lot less, interested to see the consensus on that.

So what does the board think, how many hits will the Soviets be able to land on North America?
Three of them against lightly defended cities; the Nike Ajax would shoot down several other Soviet ICBMs before they hit their targets.
 
In comparison to 200 Soviet warheads, the US would probably be able to land about 200 missile warheads and then deliver up to 6,000 warheads via bombers. Where the Soviet over-under is probably around 100 warheads, the US number would probably be at least 3,000.
 

Deleted member 145219

I really doubt many bombers get through. Maybe 15 - 20. And two to three dozen ICBM's, assuming they don't get destroyed on the ground. I doubt any missiles get launched from Cuba, because once hostilities break out in a Cuban Missile Crisis war, those missile sites are almost immediately bombed. There would be the possibility that a few of those missiles survive and get launched.

So maybe something like this in a Cuban Missile Crisis War:

Detonations:

North America - 45 (Primarily Military Targets. Some cities and Industrial Centers in the Northern US). This number might be high. Maybe even NYC and DC survive.
USSR - 2,000 (The USSR is SIOPed off the face of the Earth)
Non USSR Europe - 500. Lots of tactical nuclear weapons.
East Asia - 75. Going with China not getting hit. This number might be high.

I think the Cuban Missile Crisis war is probably the most realistic depiction of this. Though I'm skeptical that it would take as long as it did for the US to strike the USSR.
 
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I really doubt many bombers get through. Maybe 15 - 20. And two to three dozen ICBM's, assuming they don't get destroyed on the ground. I doubt any missiles get launched from Cuba, because once hostilities break out in a Cuban Missile Crisis war, those missile sites are almost immediately bombed. There would be the possibility that a few of those missiles survive and get launched.

So maybe something like this in a Cuban Missile Crisis War:

Detonations:

North America - 45 (Primarily Military Targets. Some cities and Industrial Centers in the Northern US). This number might be high.
USSR - 2,000 (The USSR is SIOPed off the face of the Earth)
Non USSR Europe - 500. Lots of tactical nuclear weapons.
East Asia - 75. Going with China not getting hit. This number might be high.
Soviet ICBMs positioned in the USSR could only reach Alaska; correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Soviet ICBMs positioned in the USSR could only reach Alaska; correct me if I'm wrong.

Egregiously so. The SS-7 could strike the northern half of the Continental United States from the main launch facilities for it at the Plesetsk Cosmodrome. The R-16, which was the dominant Soviet ICBM during the crisis, had an additional 3,000 kilometers range over the R-7.

I doubt any missiles get launched from Cuba, because once hostilities break out in a Cuban Missile Crisis war, those missile sites are almost immediately bombed.
Depends on what they get bombed with. Experience from Vietnam and Rolling Thunder later in the decade showed that American conventional bombing doctrine in the early-1960s was EXTREMELY flawed and rarely knocked out the targets they were aimed at.
Non USSR Europe - 500. Lots of tactical nuclear weapons.
Strikes me as a significant underestimate. The Soviets had 550 in the intermediate and medium ranged missiles targeted at Western European targets alone, never mind their tactical warhead stocks or the Tu-16s.
 
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Deleted member 145219

Egregiously so. The SS-7 could strike the northern half of the Continental United States from the main launch facilities for it at the Plesetsk Cosmodrome. The R-16, which was the dominant Soviet ICBM during the crisis, had an additional 3,000 kilometers range over the R-7.


Depends on what they get bombed with. Experience from Vietnam and Rolling Thunder later in the decade showed that American conventional bombing doctrine in the early-1960s was EXTREMELY flawed and rarely knocked out the targets they were aimed at.

Strikes me as a significant underestimate. The Soviets had 550 in the intermediate and medium ranged missiles targeted at Western European targets alone, never mind their tactical warhead stocks or the Tu-16s.
I wasn't quite sure as to the number. I wanted to account for large portions of the Soviet arsenal getting destroyed by American, British, and French strikes before the USSR could respond. Regardless, the casualties in Eurasia easily break 400 million.

Pretty morbid. In OTL in the early 1960's opinion polling showed lopsided majorities that believed it was only a matter of when not if a Nuclear War would occur.
 
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It was the best time to nuke the USSR for a reason, not counting hypothetical situations which weren't feasible that people bring up for some reason like "Operation Unthinkable" and whatnot, don't get me wrong, I'm not stating that the outcome would be good for the world, but in the scenario at hand, the US basically survives and becomes the global hyperpower by default (although who the hell knows or could predict how things might change after such a conflict).
 
Egregiously so. The SS-7 could strike the northern half of the Continental United States from the main launch facilities for it at the Plesetsk Cosmodrome. The R-16, which was the dominant Soviet ICBM during the crisis, had an additional 3,000 kilometers range over the R-7.
How many ICBMs do you believe the Soviets could hit America with? And as you seem quite knowledgeable do you know if they were focusing on counterforce or countervalue?
Strikes me as a significant underestimate. The Soviets had 550 in the intermediate and medium ranged missiles targeted at Western European targets alone, never mind their tactical warhead stocks or the Tu-16s.
I wonder how these would be targeted. I'm British so naturally I'm quite interested in how much damage the UK would take. Germany would suffer pretty heavily though, especially from tactical weapons.
It was the best time to nuke the USSR for a reason, not counting hypothetical situations which weren't feasible that people bring up for some reason like "Operation Unthinkable" and whatnot, don't get me wrong, I'm not stating that the outcome would be good for the world, but in the scenario at hand, the US basically survives and becomes the global hyperpower by default (although who the hell knows or could predict how things might change after such a conflict).
I agree that this is one of the times the US could decisively "win" WW3, however many casualties they take will pale compared to what would happen to the USSR.

While I'm asking questions allegedly there was the idea that the US could also target China despite it not being party to the crisis, it always seems to be discounted in these threads and I was wondering if there was any truth to it?
 
I'm not sure if the US would but I'm rather certain it had a plan to do so if it was determined necessary by the powers-that-be.
 
Nike-Ajax was not capable of intercepting ICBMs. Nike-Zeus was, but it never reached operational status.
My father worked for Bell Labs and our family lived on Kwajalein in ‘62-‘63. The island is shaped like a boomerang, with the housing on one tip and the missile launch facility at the other tip. So there was an unhindered view of any launch.
I saw the first Zeus intercept test. A target Atlas missile was fired from Vandenburg AFB. All the houses on Kwaj were built from cement block, in case a Zeus exploded and debits fell onto the island. So everyone was supposed to stay indoors during missile tests. Well not for this one! EVERYONE was outside to watch. The test took place at night (I guess to help with photography). The Atlas “warhead” looked like a slow moving meteor moving across the sky. Except for some “oohs” and “ahs”, it was completely silent. Then the Zeus was launched. It sounded like a shotgun going off right next to your head! The Zeus had incredible acceleration, you could barely follow it. It quickly became a streak of light moving down range in the direction of the Atlas. It wasn’t until many years later that I heard that first test had failed. However I saw several other intercept tests while I was there (including some double Zeus launches), and apparently some were successful!
Quite an experience for a 12 year old boy!👍

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