"The Caesariad"
- Thread starter EdT
- Start date
Glad people approve- we’re in the home stretch now, only a few parts left before we reach the (hopefully) thrilling conclusion. I think there’s a major twist every chapter from now on until the end- the body count will swell alarmingly…
Cross timeline irony can be a terrible thing…
Caesarion is indeed a nice chap, but nice doesn’t get you very far in late Republican Rome sadly, unless you have a protector to do your dirty work for you. Luckily he has his darling mother. And speaking of Cleopatra, she only wants what’s best for her child- admittedly, most mothers don’t scheme for their children to take over the world, but then most children can’t claim descent from both Julius Caesar and Philip of Macedon either!
As he isn’t necessarily the sharpest tool in the box (assuming he’s not doing a Lucius Brutus, of course), Caesarion doesn’t really realise the power he has at this point. Later events may educate him in that or they might not, but there will be plenty of people wondering if they can turn him against his mother and make him a puppet of their own. And if that happens, Cleopatra had better watch out…
It rather depends on when the Caesariad was written, really- we know that he’s posthumously unpopular, but then if that’s sometime in the mid-1st century AD after the collapse of the Caesarean dynasty and the restoration of the Republic, Caesarion may not really care all that much.
Sextus has twelve legions landing with him and a couple more in reserve (the better Roman Generals never liked taking too large a force with them for logistical reasons), so that’s a pretty big chunk of the West’s military power at that point. Quite a few of the veterans have been retired though, Octavian already wanting to get things in Italy back to normal. There are legions left in Germany and Spain though.
As for Agrippa and Cicero, the former is with Sextus and we’ll see a fair bit of him in the next chapter; he’s co-commander of the effort against Brutus. Cicero is getting a bit old and is slowing down somewhat, but is serving as Octavian’s elder statesman in the Senate. I can promise you that he will make an important contribution before the end!
The sad thing is that because of the Caesariad tidying up history, lots of people will think that it’s Cleopatra and Decimus, not Cleopatra and Marcus. Although as we see, as the thing reaches its climax it takes quite a lot of liberties with the truth….
There was a little bit of Monty Python in there!
Even IOTL, when Cleopatra had the opportunity to visit Rome and spend time there, she seemed to be very blasé about trampling all over Roman social mores; I guess it’s the iron self-confidence that comes with being an absolute ruler. Her joint command with Antonius before (and after) Actium was disastrous precisely for this reason- there’s one story where she almost caused a mutiny by showering the legions with golden presents after a battle, when actually all they wanted were the usual laurels and phalerae.
Although Cleopatra has it right that Caesarion is enough like Caesar to potentially be extremely powerful (not least because, as we will see, the troops adore him), you’re correct that she might over-reach herself somewhat. Not that she realises this, of course.
There is a lot of mutual trust between Octavian and Sextus, largely because they’re kindred spirits to a certain extent and both realise that any confrontation between them would come after, not before, Brutus is dealt with. Neither of them want to be in a situation where divisions between them allow Brutus to sneak through the middle, after all. Of course, this doesn’t mean that Octavian isn’t frantically preparing the political ground for the defeat of the Pompeians, just that nothing will be put into action until peace is finally declared.
Decimus hasn’t got too much to worry about as far as his cousin is concerned; Marcus has no political position and is not well-liked enough to put a faction together. Although if Cleopatra starts dripping poison in his ear, he might start trying to do something for Caesarion. As for Labienus, he’s certainly getting a bit big for his boots. While he is a very competent general, you’re right to say that he’s set himself a big task. The question is, in a way, will Brutus let him do it all himself? If he decides he wants the victory and marches west, there’s not much Labienus can do, but it’ll sour their relationship still further.
I admit I laughed when Brutus thought how Antonius wouldn't approve of his endeavour with Cleopatra.
Cross timeline irony can be a terrible thing…
Awww... Caesarion is such a decent boy.
Don't you dare to ruin his life, Ed.
Cleopatra is such a horrible mother to Caesarion. If he ever does become King of Egypt, maybe he can get back at her for all the crap he had to put with as a child. Or maybe he kills her instead and takes the throne.
Caesarion is indeed a nice chap, but nice doesn’t get you very far in late Republican Rome sadly, unless you have a protector to do your dirty work for you. Luckily he has his darling mother. And speaking of Cleopatra, she only wants what’s best for her child- admittedly, most mothers don’t scheme for their children to take over the world, but then most children can’t claim descent from both Julius Caesar and Philip of Macedon either!
As he isn’t necessarily the sharpest tool in the box (assuming he’s not doing a Lucius Brutus, of course), Caesarion doesn’t really realise the power he has at this point. Later events may educate him in that or they might not, but there will be plenty of people wondering if they can turn him against his mother and make him a puppet of their own. And if that happens, Cleopatra had better watch out…
Yes. It doesn't seem like he's alive to defend his reputation at this point.
It rather depends on when the Caesariad was written, really- we know that he’s posthumously unpopular, but then if that’s sometime in the mid-1st century AD after the collapse of the Caesarean dynasty and the restoration of the Republic, Caesarion may not really care all that much.
Sextus has twelve legions landing with him and a couple more in reserve (the better Roman Generals never liked taking too large a force with them for logistical reasons), so that’s a pretty big chunk of the West’s military power at that point. Quite a few of the veterans have been retired though, Octavian already wanting to get things in Italy back to normal. There are legions left in Germany and Spain though.
As for Agrippa and Cicero, the former is with Sextus and we’ll see a fair bit of him in the next chapter; he’s co-commander of the effort against Brutus. Cicero is getting a bit old and is slowing down somewhat, but is serving as Octavian’s elder statesman in the Senate. I can promise you that he will make an important contribution before the end!
The sad thing is that because of the Caesariad tidying up history, lots of people will think that it’s Cleopatra and Decimus, not Cleopatra and Marcus. Although as we see, as the thing reaches its climax it takes quite a lot of liberties with the truth….
A good update EdT.
Nice reference to Anthony & Cleopatra
And the Life of Brian if I'm not mistaken
There was a little bit of Monty Python in there!
Although he does have the sense to be cautious about combining the words Rome and king. Not to mention does she seriously think than even if the Romans would accept a king they would also tolerate the Egyptian practice of incest?
Even IOTL, when Cleopatra had the opportunity to visit Rome and spend time there, she seemed to be very blasé about trampling all over Roman social mores; I guess it’s the iron self-confidence that comes with being an absolute ruler. Her joint command with Antonius before (and after) Actium was disastrous precisely for this reason- there’s one story where she almost caused a mutiny by showering the legions with golden presents after a battle, when actually all they wanted were the usual laurels and phalerae.
Although Cleopatra has it right that Caesarion is enough like Caesar to potentially be extremely powerful (not least because, as we will see, the troops adore him), you’re correct that she might over-reach herself somewhat. Not that she realises this, of course.
There is a lot of mutual trust between Octavian and Sextus, largely because they’re kindred spirits to a certain extent and both realise that any confrontation between them would come after, not before, Brutus is dealt with. Neither of them want to be in a situation where divisions between them allow Brutus to sneak through the middle, after all. Of course, this doesn’t mean that Octavian isn’t frantically preparing the political ground for the defeat of the Pompeians, just that nothing will be put into action until peace is finally declared.
Furthermore it sounds like the two Brutii will become rivals. Which could cause complications. Although it could also become moot if Titus is too overconfident and mucks up his attempts to stop Sextus. he's being very rash relying on doing it himself although it sounds like he's adopting the wisest policy in facing superior forces. [Does however sound suspiciously like what Pompey tried OTL and that didn't work out
Decimus hasn’t got too much to worry about as far as his cousin is concerned; Marcus has no political position and is not well-liked enough to put a faction together. Although if Cleopatra starts dripping poison in his ear, he might start trying to do something for Caesarion. As for Labienus, he’s certainly getting a bit big for his boots. While he is a very competent general, you’re right to say that he’s set himself a big task. The question is, in a way, will Brutus let him do it all himself? If he decides he wants the victory and marches west, there’s not much Labienus can do, but it’ll sour their relationship still further.
Ed, you do realise that pearls don't dissolve in wine, and anything they do dissolve in would be really bad for you? [/pedant]
Otherwise, cool.
Otherwise, cool.
Ed, you do realise that pearls don't dissolve in wine, and anything they do dissolve in would be really bad for you? [/pedant]
Oh yes, pearls don't dissolve in wine and neither are they meant to- but it was something that Hellenistic courts often did to their wine as a mark of wealth. You were meant to notice it and be impressed that they had so many pearls they could afford to do something so pointless, I suppose.
Ah yes like the gold flake toppings on so many millionaire's desserts today.
EdT
That sounds a thrilling ride, or a bloody terrifying one if you're on the inside.
- Mind you that Brutus hasn't actually really tried anything with her.
One point as you say is that despite his size he is only 12 I think you said so he still has a fair bit of growing to occur. However, unless he's a very strong personality it could be a very nasty ending for Cleo as there could be a lot of resentment building up, until he realises he can do something about his mothers dominating him. Which possibly might bring the wheels off as whatever she is she is fairly canny. Could be that by seizing power in such a way he quickly dismantles his cause.
Very true. Although I find it a bit difficult to see the three 'sons' of Caesar being seen as champions of a restored republic. Although much stranger things have happened.
That's interesting. Agrippa is a very good commander but he serves Octavian so wonder if his loyalty will be strained. I suspect they will win but could then find themselves caught by surprize by the storm from Egypt.
That sounds a bit odd as the earlier chapters seemed to represent Decimus as one of the three 'sons' who fight the menace from the east?
Sorry I missed the lumberjack song. Where was it?
Interesting in showing a difference between the legions of the time and the latter army.
That tends to be the problem with characters used from an early age to great power as they fail to recognise that other people think differently.
From what I know of Octavian I would say that nothing would become open until they feel secure against their eastern opponents but I would suspect that wheels would start rolling now.
With Labienus I think what Decimus will be enraged about is that he got so overconfident that he underplayed the threat so he can grab the glory. If, as I suspect, Sextus gains control of most of Greece and the Balkans and Titus survives I wouldn't like to be in his sandals when Decimus gets his hands on him. If I read it correctly Decimus won't realise how big a threat Sextus's army is until its too late.
I tend to get the two Brutii confused too much. While Decimus has the glamour wasn't it Marcus that was the better commander? He was the one who defeated Octavian at Philippi. [Actually just checked and according to the Wiki entry he could have been lucky there and despite his defeat by Anthony it sounds like Cassius was the better military leader in the assassins].
Steve
That sounds a thrilling ride, or a bloody terrifying one if you're on the inside.
- Mind you that Brutus hasn't actually really tried anything with her.One point as you say is that despite his size he is only 12 I think you said so he still has a fair bit of growing to occur. However, unless he's a very strong personality it could be a very nasty ending for Cleo as there could be a lot of resentment building up, until he realises he can do something about his mothers dominating him. Which possibly might bring the wheels off as whatever she is she is fairly canny. Could be that by seizing power in such a way he quickly dismantles his cause.
Very true. Although I find it a bit difficult to see the three 'sons' of Caesar being seen as champions of a restored republic. Although much stranger things have happened.
That's interesting. Agrippa is a very good commander but he serves Octavian so wonder if his loyalty will be strained. I suspect they will win but could then find themselves caught by surprize by the storm from Egypt.
That sounds a bit odd as the earlier chapters seemed to represent Decimus as one of the three 'sons' who fight the menace from the east?
Sorry I missed the lumberjack song. Where was it?
Interesting in showing a difference between the legions of the time and the latter army.
That tends to be the problem with characters used from an early age to great power as they fail to recognise that other people think differently.
From what I know of Octavian I would say that nothing would become open until they feel secure against their eastern opponents but I would suspect that wheels would start rolling now.
With Labienus I think what Decimus will be enraged about is that he got so overconfident that he underplayed the threat so he can grab the glory. If, as I suspect, Sextus gains control of most of Greece and the Balkans and Titus survives I wouldn't like to be in his sandals when Decimus gets his hands on him. If I read it correctly Decimus won't realise how big a threat Sextus's army is until its too late.
I tend to get the two Brutii confused too much. While Decimus has the glamour wasn't it Marcus that was the better commander? He was the one who defeated Octavian at Philippi. [Actually just checked and according to the Wiki entry he could have been lucky there and despite his defeat by Anthony it sounds like Cassius was the better military leader in the assassins].
Steve
...Interesting in showing a difference between the legions of the time and the latter army.
Indeed, the legions of the Empire from 14 AD on probably would have declared Caesarion Emperor on the spot. From 192 AD on they'd seek competing bids first.
Ah the fall from the "Age of Gold" to the "Age of Iron & Rust".
Hero of Canton
Very true--as another example a western Roman Republic would view a Caesarion-descended monarchy in the East with considerable hostility and suspicion. (Especially if it has Egypt and can thus starve them out with impunity if the Republic starts getting uppity.) But that said--I'm not getting a good vibe here.
Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!
Now I have a vision of Cleopatra being played by Terry Jones
The only way that you can make up for that is to have Cleopatra say: "All men are fools. And what makes them so is having beauty like what I have got"
Cheers,
Nigel.
Now I have a vision of Cleopatra being played by Terry Jones
The only way that you can make up for that is to have Cleopatra say: "All men are fools. And what makes them so is having beauty like what I have got"
Cheers,
Nigel.
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EdT, I've just finished reading through the whole thread, and I wanted to post to let you know how impressed I am by it. You've done a great job with the maps, and the poetry really fits in and is quite first-rate. When I first read something of yours it was Fight and be Right, and I enjoyed that one too; seeing this after having read through that one reinforces my positive impression of your work, it's cool that you're able to do such good stuff about two such disparate eras. Well, that's enough of the hagiography for now, I'll just let you know that I'm looking forward to the next update.
Ed, you do realise that pearls don't dissolve in wine, and anything they do dissolve in would be reat]
Otherwise, cool.
Errr.. roman wine was probably close enough to vinegar that it WOULD disolve pearls.....
Sior
Banned
Now I have a vision of Cleopatra being played by Terry Jones
The only way that you can make up for that is to have Cleopatra say: "All men are fools. And what makes them so is having beauty like what I have got"
Cheers,
Nigel.
Carry on Cleo was the best!
Please legate we'd like some more.
Don't worry, I promise there will be! I have the next part half-written but I'm intending to do a little bit of work on it over the weekend.