I'm not talking about the Reich's political temperament, I'm talking about actual changes in the world, much like the changes that occurred IOTL in the 1945-53 period.
The Anglo/American - Nazi War
- Thread starter CalBear
- Start date
- Status
Winston Smith
Banned
Arghhh!!! You guys are going off topic! Save this for someone else and in the mean time, let us all praise Calbear, for he is most awesome! Heil Calbear, Lord of the MTLs!
The gap isn't that great when you look at it from the beginning of the Bombing holiday and the resumption of hostilities. You are looking at roughly seven years, which is not that long.
The Anglo/Americans would have been willing to let things go even longer, especially since they had pretty much eliminated the U-boat threat or at least reduced it to a level that was politically acceptable (Nothing like the odd ship catching a torpedo to make those defense budgets go down easier with the the electorate. The Allies didn't intentionally allow ships to be sunk, they were never close to that cynical, but the losses were down to a ship every month or two.) The situation in the Warm War was much like 1950s Korea, people died, but it never reached the point that either side wanted to kick off a major war with the massive costs involved. That changed when the U-1632 and Helmut Goebbels were lost in January of 1954.
Thanks for the comments.
Thanks for all answers and clarifications CalBear.
Ofc. there are more.
First, three nuclear questions.
1. How did USA manage to hide all of its nuclear tests? I can assume they did them only when absolutely necessary to validate a new design... but its very very visible thing. (Seismometers all over the world detecting a large shot type of visibility. Though I might be overstating this part.)
2. You never answered, do Allies have H-Bomb? IRL Teller was so damn persistent about the subject, I don't think he would be a bit less persistent about "Super" in world where war with Germany is still ongoing.
3. Nuclear power plants? I'm fairly certain that theoretical work is done and done. Maybe they don't build them because of entire tiny "nukes are a secret" part? I simply can't imagine USN without its CVNs... no one can.
Next.
Its a long passed part of TL but please.
4. With Hitler prohibiting Duche from going south, what happened to Greece and Yugoslavia? Might have YU this time stayed "pro forme" Nazi friendly. (AKA, no March Coup in spring of '41 than made Hitler all RAGE)
5. How exactly were South American nations convinced to give troops to Allied effort, and how were said troops brought to useful quality?
6. UK was on its edges economical and manpower wise in OTL. Even with America in war, what exactly made UK stay in war full 14 years from Blitz to St. Patrick? I know its the very basis of TL, but still. With USSR defeated and Allies having no means or hopes of invading Europe for at least a decade how come a real truce wast signed?
Ofc. there are more.
First, three nuclear questions.
1. How did USA manage to hide all of its nuclear tests? I can assume they did them only when absolutely necessary to validate a new design... but its very very visible thing. (Seismometers all over the world detecting a large shot type of visibility. Though I might be overstating this part.)
2. You never answered, do Allies have H-Bomb? IRL Teller was so damn persistent about the subject, I don't think he would be a bit less persistent about "Super" in world where war with Germany is still ongoing.
3. Nuclear power plants? I'm fairly certain that theoretical work is done and done. Maybe they don't build them because of entire tiny "nukes are a secret" part? I simply can't imagine USN without its CVNs... no one can.
Next.
Its a long passed part of TL but please.
4. With Hitler prohibiting Duche from going south, what happened to Greece and Yugoslavia? Might have YU this time stayed "pro forme" Nazi friendly. (AKA, no March Coup in spring of '41 than made Hitler all RAGE)
5. How exactly were South American nations convinced to give troops to Allied effort, and how were said troops brought to useful quality?
6. UK was on its edges economical and manpower wise in OTL. Even with America in war, what exactly made UK stay in war full 14 years from Blitz to St. Patrick? I know its the very basis of TL, but still. With USSR defeated and Allies having no means or hopes of invading Europe for at least a decade how come a real truce wast signed?
Winston Smith
Banned
I believe that points 1 and 3 are related. The increased radiation from the tests have been attributed by the Nazis to failed reactors. The USA has nuclear power submarines. And Calbear has stated that the UN forces have a few H-bombs, but most of the nukes are tactical a-bombs. Am I right, Calbear?
Point 4) No idea
5) Calbear has said that several South American nations have contributed forces, in particular Brazil.
6) Again, I have no idea.
Point 4) No idea
5) Calbear has said that several South American nations have contributed forces, in particular Brazil.
6) Again, I have no idea.
Latin America would fall into the Allied orbit ITTL. Brazil did in OTL, and while the Nazi defeat of the Soviets is impressive, the fact that the Nazis and Japanese couldn't clear the seas means that there's no chance of an alliance between a Latin American state and the Axis.
I wouldn't be shocked if Britain acquiesced to Argentina paying for and nationalizing British-owned infrastructure (such as the railroads), particularly as a means of securing capital and Argentine goodwill.
I wouldn't be shocked if Britain acquiesced to Argentina paying for and nationalizing British-owned infrastructure (such as the railroads), particularly as a means of securing capital and Argentine goodwill.
Answers... Those I have in bulk!
Nuke questions:
1. The Marshall Islands are literally on the far side of the Planet from Germany, as is the UK sites in Australia. The Reich has been convinced that nukes don't work (mainly thanks to KGB perpetration agents). The Party has also convinced itself that the big explosions were Allied Fuel/Air bombs, mainly because the KNOW that the Allied efforts failed. There do know that there are ways to get a nuclear reactor to work, although the Reich is WAY behind in this area.
2. The Allies do have Thermonuclear Weapons, although not as many or as large as IOTL 1958. There are no MK-41 25MT weapons lurking out there, although there are five MK-24 10MT weapons. Most U.S. weapons are either boosted fission (MK-6, MK-7) or lightweight H-Bomb (MK-15 3.8MT) that can be carried by the F-105 as well as the Big Boys.
3. The U.S. has launched its first SSNs. There are no CVN, at least not yet.
other questions...
4. Yugoslavia is inside the Reich's orbit. The Balkans are "allied" to the Reich (sort of how Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact "Alliance")
5. The Nazis did most of the convincing. The world outside of Nazi occupied/Axis Europe has more or less recoiled in horror at the Party's vision of the world. The part of South America that didn't find the Reich horrific mainly were able to count bayonets and/or Dollars/Pounds and went with the Allies. Not all of South America has forces deployed, and most that do are token numbers. Brazil does have a full Infantry Division that is very solid. and the Argentines also have a Division sized force, although it is not quite top notch (it is rather like a lower quality U.S. National Guard formation).
6. Short answer is disgust. The UK simply couldn't make nice with the Reich, especially with any sort of terms that the Party would have taken. It was willing to go with the Bombing Holiday, since it was England & Scotland that was being bombed, but signing a treaty with a country that broke every treaty it ever signed, a country that was systematically obliterating entire ethnic groups, and that would formally accept that all of Europe belonged to Berlin, that wasn't happening.
Nuke questions:
1. The Marshall Islands are literally on the far side of the Planet from Germany, as is the UK sites in Australia. The Reich has been convinced that nukes don't work (mainly thanks to KGB perpetration agents). The Party has also convinced itself that the big explosions were Allied Fuel/Air bombs, mainly because the KNOW that the Allied efforts failed. There do know that there are ways to get a nuclear reactor to work, although the Reich is WAY behind in this area.
2. The Allies do have Thermonuclear Weapons, although not as many or as large as IOTL 1958. There are no MK-41 25MT weapons lurking out there, although there are five MK-24 10MT weapons. Most U.S. weapons are either boosted fission (MK-6, MK-7) or lightweight H-Bomb (MK-15 3.8MT) that can be carried by the F-105 as well as the Big Boys.
3. The U.S. has launched its first SSNs. There are no CVN, at least not yet.
other questions...
4. Yugoslavia is inside the Reich's orbit. The Balkans are "allied" to the Reich (sort of how Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact "Alliance")
5. The Nazis did most of the convincing. The world outside of Nazi occupied/Axis Europe has more or less recoiled in horror at the Party's vision of the world. The part of South America that didn't find the Reich horrific mainly were able to count bayonets and/or Dollars/Pounds and went with the Allies. Not all of South America has forces deployed, and most that do are token numbers. Brazil does have a full Infantry Division that is very solid. and the Argentines also have a Division sized force, although it is not quite top notch (it is rather like a lower quality U.S. National Guard formation).
6. Short answer is disgust. The UK simply couldn't make nice with the Reich, especially with any sort of terms that the Party would have taken. It was willing to go with the Bombing Holiday, since it was England & Scotland that was being bombed, but signing a treaty with a country that broke every treaty it ever signed, a country that was systematically obliterating entire ethnic groups, and that would formally accept that all of Europe belonged to Berlin, that wasn't happening.
Thanks for all answers and clarifications CalBear.
Ofc. there are more.
First, three nuclear questions.
1. How did USA manage to hide all of its nuclear tests? I can assume they did them only when absolutely necessary to validate a new design... but its very very visible thing. (Seismometers all over the world detecting a large shot type of visibility. Though I might be overstating this part.)
2. You never answered, do Allies have H-Bomb? IRL Teller was so damn persistent about the subject, I don't think he would be a bit less persistent about "Super" in world where war with Germany is still ongoing.
3. Nuclear power plants? I'm fairly certain that theoretical work is done and done. Maybe they don't build them because of entire tiny "nukes are a secret" part? I simply can't imagine USN without its CVNs... no one can.
Next.
Its a long passed part of TL but please.
4. With Hitler prohibiting Duche from going south, what happened to Greece and Yugoslavia? Might have YU this time stayed "pro forme" Nazi friendly. (AKA, no March Coup in spring of '41 than made Hitler all RAGE)
5. How exactly were South American nations convinced to give troops to Allied effort, and how were said troops brought to useful quality?
6. UK was on its edges economical and manpower wise in OTL. Even with America in war, what exactly made UK stay in war full 14 years from Blitz to St. Patrick? I know its the very basis of TL, but still. With USSR defeated and Allies having no means or hopes of invading Europe for at least a decade how come a real truce wast signed?
Again thanks for answers. No more questions, cant wait for next update.
Yeey for SSN Nautilus! (and possibly, Yeey for Admiral Hyman Rickover!)
About nuclear arsenal. It is then safely to assume that USA has sufficient weapons and delivery systems to completely "reduce" Greater German Reich should they decide. And kill 50 to 100 million people in process most likely.
That just brought me to a non question. Main delivery system would of course be B-52. We see that allied cruise missile tech is beyond IOTL but advancing, so mostly gravity bombs.
What about B-58 Hustler? Its IOTL first flight has passed, but I don't think there is any need for a high speed long range nuclear bomber in this world (ATL).
Same for OTL high speed interceptors. There are no imaginary swarms of nonexistent Soviet bombers that are not nearly as capable as JFK electoral campaign made them to validate need for such things. (last sentence might be a grammatical disaster, its just supposed to be ultra bitter stab at "Bomber Gap")
Yeey for SSN Nautilus! (and possibly, Yeey for Admiral Hyman Rickover!)
About nuclear arsenal. It is then safely to assume that USA has sufficient weapons and delivery systems to completely "reduce" Greater German Reich should they decide. And kill 50 to 100 million people in process most likely.
That just brought me to a non question. Main delivery system would of course be B-52. We see that allied cruise missile tech is beyond IOTL but advancing, so mostly gravity bombs.
What about B-58 Hustler? Its IOTL first flight has passed, but I don't think there is any need for a high speed long range nuclear bomber in this world (ATL).
Same for OTL high speed interceptors. There are no imaginary swarms of nonexistent Soviet bombers that are not nearly as capable as JFK electoral campaign made them to validate need for such things. (last sentence might be a grammatical disaster, its just supposed to be ultra bitter stab at "Bomber Gap")
Something worth keeping in mind, all these "strategic" mult-megaton nukes are actually pretty inefficient for what one would need in a strategic engagement (the largest average devices would be in the 200kt-500kt range, although you can still accomplish a lot at double-digit kiloton yields depending on the targets), because of diminishing returns: the higher in yields you go, the more bomb size/mass and reaction matter you end up wasting. Those megaton bombs are best used for cracking open tough bunker complexes or digging up C3 facilities out of the ground.
Just food for thought
Just food for thought
Something worth keeping in mind, all these "strategic" mult-megaton nukes are actually pretty inefficient for what one would need in a strategic engagement (the ideal would be in the 200kt-500kt range), because you get diminishing returns the higher in yields you go in terms of bomb size/mass and reaction matter you end up using (i.e. wasting). Those megaton bombs are best used for cracking open bunker complexes or digging up C3 facilities out of the ground.
Just food for thought
Exactly right. That's why the Allies have a few Crowd Pleasers but for the most part the inventory is centered on 100-150kt boosted fission weapons or "small" H-bombs.
Winston Smith
Banned
Slightly idiotic question, but since water splits into hydrogren and oxygen at high temperatures, and then proceed to combust, would detonating a high-yeild nuke over water cause this to happen?
Besides, given the target (Greater Germany), you'd be better off using a bunch of 20-50kt. devices in interlocking patterns and letting the VERY close proximity of enemy cities/assets work for you. Big bombs aren't much help here beyond making a deeper crater, when what we want is wider blast patterns. The key is effective targeting.
Quick side question, will the Bullpup missiles make an appearance? Even in conventional form, I can see them being a HUGE boon for the USAF and USN flyboys over Europe.
Winston: no clue, you'd probably be better off asking MKSheppard or JN1, but it seems probable.
how effective is the Centurion ATL?
And what is postwar Germany going to look like if the Nazi party has had a GENERATION to entrench themselves in the minds of people? Denazification would be a heraclean labour compared to OTL.
Considering I think Germany would be lucky to end the war with at most thirty million people and the country is likely to be divided I think denazifaction may be the smallest worry.
how effective is the Centurion ATL?
And what is postwar Germany going to look like if the Nazi party has had a GENERATION to entrench themselves in the minds of people? Denazification would be a heraclean labour compared to OTL.
Denazification is going to be the least of the problem. It has been long enough that most of the Continent's power base is almost totally Fascist. The "liberal democrats" are virtually extinct as a political element, with the Socialists and, God help them, Communists being largely literally extinct.
The Centurion is as effective as IOTL, which is to say very effective, especially with the modification made in the design after Sicily.
Emphasis mine: I'd bet good money that all sorts of butterfly effects will pop up down the road in OTL Communist spheres of influence (e.g. Cuba, Vietnam, what's left or Russia/USSR, etc.), or perhaps already have. For example, how much traction would Che Guevara and his contemporaries have ITTL?
I would think the big ones are targetted at the underground manufacturing plants if they are still operational, plus a handful of big, important targets.
Have the Germans kept on building stuff under mountains, or did they let it fall into disuse during the bombing holiday? If the latter, I would have thought they would have reopened them, and knowing they exist (even mothballed) one would suppose the allies had some nice big firecrackers waiting for them.
On detecting bombs; it helps if you know what you are looking for. The 3 givaways are the optical/thermal pulse (not an issue unless the Nazis deploy satelites), the fallout (which assumes you are looking for it; testing a long way away (and in a different hemisphere for the winds) helps a lot. The US discovered the Soviet tests because they had purpose-equipped planes looking for fission products, and the wind carried them though the flightpaths. The 3rd detection is the ground pulse; however again, if not looking for this, it could be mistaken for an earthquake or some other form of test - I'm not sure offhand how a nuke groundwaves compares to an earthquake. Remember this sort of science probably hasnt developed much in Nazi germany - not many earthqakes in Europe, so why sorry about them...
It could be mistaken for an earthquake, if you didn't look that closely. I know nukes and earthquakes "look" different to a seismologist (something about one being an impulse and the other a more prolonged action, I think).
Almost missed adding my own $0.02 about this, but I really hope the Hustler exists ITTL, even if it doesn't make an appearance here (the trend of mixing supersonic performance with ground attack roles here should logically see it coming into service).
As for the interceptors, the St. Patrick's Day raid displayed that a strong aerial defense force is certainly necessary, just as long as multi-role platforms are still given overall priority (e.g. more F-4s, less F-104s).
^All here-say and speculation on my part of course
Well there's nothing better than reading a CalBear TL after Turkey Day
IIRC, the U.S. propped up a lot of right-wing dictatorships simply because they need a counterweight to the "Commies". Without the Red Menace, I imagine the Allies can afford to let the people rule themselves - so to speak.
Known facts ITTL:
1. Vietnam, as one united country, was on the Allied side. Viet Minh was wreaking havoc behind German lines in France before the invasion - alongside the Philippine Scouts (or is it the Alamo Scouts?), no less
2. I think CalBear mentioned a Russian underground movement that causes untold headaches for the Third Reich (something along the lines of what Vietnam did to U.S. IOTL)
What I believe happened (and I hope it is true):
1. Batista, no longer supported by the U.S., was overthrown earlier by Fidel, who became a U.S. ally (I know it's ancient history - no pun intended - but would Gitmo made for a good base in anti U-boat operations?)
2. El Che is still a freedom fighter - who kills Nazis behind enemy lines, Inglourious Basterds-style
Marc A
IIRC, the U.S. propped up a lot of right-wing dictatorships simply because they need a counterweight to the "Commies". Without the Red Menace, I imagine the Allies can afford to let the people rule themselves - so to speak.
Known facts ITTL:
1. Vietnam, as one united country, was on the Allied side. Viet Minh was wreaking havoc behind German lines in France before the invasion - alongside the Philippine Scouts (or is it the Alamo Scouts?), no less
2. I think CalBear mentioned a Russian underground movement that causes untold headaches for the Third Reich (something along the lines of what Vietnam did to U.S. IOTL)
What I believe happened (and I hope it is true)
:1. Batista, no longer supported by the U.S., was overthrown earlier by Fidel, who became a U.S. ally (I know it's ancient history - no pun intended - but would Gitmo made for a good base in anti U-boat operations?)
2. El Che is still a freedom fighter - who kills Nazis behind enemy lines, Inglourious Basterds-style
Marc A
- Status