The Anglo/American - Nazi War

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Germans are monitoring the communications of their "allies". I have just reliased that the statement Calbear made about their being "more then one German state" means that, one way or another, H-bombs won't be used on a large enough scale to bring about a The Big One style collapse of Germany. Am I right, Calbear?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I have a sneaking suspicion the Germans are monitoring the communications of their "allies". I have just reliased that the statement Calbear made about their being "more then one German state" means that, one way or another, H-bombs won't be used on a large enough scale to bring about a The Big One style collapse of Germany. Am I right, Calbear?

We shall see, shalln't we?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Here is the next installment.

Comments??????

23

The aftermath of Operation Condor is remarkable, not for the military results, although the effective destruction of an Army Corps was a not inconsiderable achievement/loss, but in the manner with the results were taken.

The Allied commanders almost immediately (as soon as they completed the so-called “Hot Wash” on July 12th) initiated a series of operational changes designed to ensure that no divisional size unit would find itself left with no air cover assigned for emergency call on a bright sunny morning as had been the case for both the Polish and Indian forces on the morning of the 11th. Immediate efforts were also begun to ensure that, in the polyglot Allied command structure, joining units always had liaison officers who were fluent in their neighbors language (or at least in English, the de facto language of the Allied forces) so there would be no delay in requesting or receiving support. Both changes were to prove of use as the campaign progressed.

The Allied Tactical Air Forces overall commander, General James Doolittle, perhaps more than any other American officer, acknowledged that the Allied victory was as much a matter of luck as any operational genius or even the courage and tenacity of the 2nd Fusiliers. Luck that the Thunderchief flight literally stumbled over the Luftwaffe attack squadrons as they were moving into attack the Polish formation, luck that Lion hadn’t been 10 miles further away, and luck that the Luftwaffe had suddenly disappeared as suddenly as it had appeared. Doolittle found that the Allied fighter commanders had, in far too many cases, been assuming that the Luftwaffe would not make a serious appearance, at least not until the Allied lines had moved considerably inland and that, if/when the Reich launched any attack the Allies would detect the attack long before it happened. This thinking cost the C.O. of the 56th Fighter Group, the Group responsible for defending the airspace over Arneke, his job. He was not the only individual to lose his position due to the action, but he was the most senior allied officer removed.

While it would have been of little comfort to the 56th’s former commander, Operation Condor ended the careers of men with far more gold braid than he possessed in the Reich. The most senior of these was Reichsmarschall Herman Goring, who SS commander Himmler managed to paint as the scapegoat for the entire disaster. The political maneuvering that allowed Himmler to effectively cut the man who had once been Hitler’s designated successor out of the party’s leadership is far beyond the scope of this work, but it represented the first sign of panic among the Nazi senior leadership (for a fascinating study of this element of the Reich’s political history The Devil’s Princes, Leadership in the 3rd Reich, by Guy Lambert, University of Toronto Press, 2001, is highly recommended). Goring’s manner of dismissal was responsible for considerable change, not all of it within the Reich.

It is extremely fortunate for the Allies that Goring was not removed in the aftermath of the St. Patrick’s Day Raids given his opiate dependency and his largely successful effort in convincing Hitler that the Luftwaffe was superior in both men and equipment than anything that the Anglo/Americans could field. Goring’s confidence in, and championing of, the carefully planted KGB/GRU disinformation concerning the West’s A-bomb program was one of the crucial elements in the Reich’s failure to discover the remarkably large, although fairly well concealed, American and British parallel & joint weapon programs. Goring preference for short range interceptors and relative distain for extremely long range bombers was also a significant element in the Luftwaffe’s overall combat structure.

Goring’s replacement, Generaloberst Adolph Galland, was promoted from commander of the Luftwaffe’s Fighter Command. An exceptional technical officer, and an acknowledged tactical genius, Galland arrived on the scene too late to re-engineer the Luftwaffe along the lines he had advocated since his promotion to General in 1943, something that was fortunate indeed for the RAF and USAF. Galland also lacked Goring’s political power, a situation that effectively hamstrung him in any competition with the SS. This was perhaps best illustrated by Himmler’s successful takeover of all Luftwaffe ground formations, including the Anti-aircraft forces (with the resultant chaos as SS political appointees rapidly replaced experienced Luftwaffe senior commanders) in the weeks immediately following the failure of Operation Condor. General Galland’s lack of political clout was also a strong contributor to the deployments of Luftwaffe resources in the period following Goring’s ouster.

Himmler’s ability to hang any of the remaining fault for Condor’s failure onto the French National Forces and not on the battle plan that he had personally approved and ordered implemented is also noteworthy, not only for the degree of political astuteness it demonstrated, but for its foreshadowing of events to come.
 
Normally I'd bitch, but given I just read Out of the Dark... (My God, he managed to beat RINGO in "Oh, no, man, don't do it")... weeelll.
(Hey, I _LIKE_ his Bazhell series and his Honorverse, depending which ones, though I'll admit (even though there IS historical tendancy for an 'lucky commander' or 'lucky' ship to exist) they aren't everyone's cup of tea. But given Out of the Dark... _gah_. competent space invaders, LOSING TO VAMPIRES? VAMPIRES? What. The. Fuck?

Great thread otherwise, Cal. Though I rather your Pacific war.
A.
 

loughery111

Banned
Can't say I have.

Am I stealing his stuff without knowing it?

No, you're not. Just that the motif of political stupidity screwing heavily with personnel choices and combat operations comes up rather frequently for much of that series.

Nah. Unlike Weber's manure, your stuff is actually good. :)

Hey, I like his style. And given the insane numbers of books he sells it would seem that quite a few people agree with me. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit.
 

loughery111

Banned
Normally I'd bitch, but given I just read Out of the Dark... (My God, he managed to beat RINGO in "Oh, no, man, don't do it")... weeelll.
(Hey, I _LIKE_ his Bazhell series and his Honorverse, depending which ones, though I'll admit (even though there IS historical tendancy for an 'lucky commander' or 'lucky' ship to exist) they aren't everyone's cup of tea. But given Out of the Dark... _gah_. competent space invaders, LOSING TO VAMPIRES? VAMPIRES? What. The. Fuck?

Great thread otherwise, Cal. Though I rather your Pacific war.
A.

I've heard untold horror stories about that book. As I have no intention of buying it, would you mind telling me (via PM so as to not screw anyone else who might want to read it) what in God's name happened to warrant so much scorn?
 
No, you're not. Just that the motif of political stupidity screwing heavily with personnel choices and combat operations comes up rather frequently for much of that series.


Actually, this instance in particular fits quite well with OTL's history. As in OTL, the KM was run by a very competent commander, yet his lack of political clout hamstrung the german navy into getting the least resources of the three services, effectively the LW has just gotten served with the same shit sandwitch.

Hey, I like his style. And given the insane numbers of books he sells it would seem that quite a few people agree with me. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit.


Honorverse is a special case, it started off well, but Weber has just been beating a dead horse with that series, he should have ended it with ashes of victory.
 
Depends. Acutally, Honorverse (to At all costs) was an combo of Nelson (in RL, man's... intresting, anyways) and Hornblower, but really an refighting of Nappy's wars. WIth the SKM as England and Haven as France. What we're seeing NOW, is Eric Flint's fault. He was going to do the current plot about 25-30 years later. Dan's obviously an more shoot 'em up fan, which isn't bad, but I tended to like the politics more. *shrugs* Everyone's cuppa differs, I guess.

IF you like space opera, and "Hornblower in Spaaaaaaaaaace!" (Which David DOES admit the series was supposed to be, PLUS he was planning to off Honor at AAC) Honorverse is an good read.

A.
 
Relevant:

ah1.jpg


ah2.png
 

loughery111

Banned
Actually, this instance in particular fits quite well with OTL's history. As in OTL, the KM was run by a very competent commander, yet his lack of political clout hamstrung the german navy into getting the least resources of the three services, effectively the LW has just gotten served with the same shit sandwitch.




Honorverse is a special case, it started off well, but Weber has just been beating a dead horse with that series, he should have ended it with ashes of victory.

I'm actually partial to the new ones. Mostly because I want Mesa obliterated from the face of the universe. On occasion, its nice to have a conflict in which there is just NO question at all who needs to be killed. Anyway, this is probably the wrong forum to do this in... let's leave CalBear to write the story.

On the political influence and such, I agree, it's realistic. I just happened to be rereading one of the early Honorverse books so the idea was already in my head when I read this.
 
Himmler’s ability to hang any of the remaining fault for Condor’s failure onto the French National Forces and not on the battle plan that he had personally approved and ordered implemented is also noteworthy, not only for the degree of political astuteness it demonstrated, but for its foreshadowing of events to come.

Sound really REALLY unpleasant for the French in the near term, but possibly will save the French in the long run (i.e. after the war's over)...
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top