The Anglo/American - Nazi War
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Bookmark1995
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ITTL, I believe he was given such speeches almost to the end of the war.
ITTL, I believe he was given such speeches almost to the end of the war.
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Neither got out of the USSR before the Fall. Molotov used them as props until the end of the War.
Just a question, what is the state of public transport in your verse?
I cant imagine the Beeching Act or the trolled scandal going through with an active Nazi Germany. But post war I could see some weasels try that
I cant imagine the Beeching Act or the trolled scandal going through with an active Nazi Germany. But post war I could see some weasels try that
Bookmark1995
Banned
What happened when Molotov's government was destroyed? Did the two get torn apart by an angry mob? Did they get lucky and end up in a Western embassy?
No. They remained "proof" that several consecutive "Soviet" governments were the true successors to Lenin & Stalin until they died.
Bookmark1995
Banned
So basically, all the warlords calling themselves "the emergency provisional Soviet government", fought over Svetlana and Vasily. What a horrible existence: being pawns of a bunch desperate, power-hungry bastards who dare call themselves "revolutionaries."
Pretty much. Of course just being stuck in what's left of the USSR pretty much sucks.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Uh well...
Let me put it this way.
OTL Chinese refer to the period between 1839 to 1949 as the era of humiliation, as you probably know.
For a century, China suffered from numerous foreign interventions, the loss of territory, internal conflict, fragmentation, economic instability, technological backwardness, corruption, and brutal warfare.
China alone lost 70 million people in the Taiping Rebellion...in the mid-19th century!
TTL Russian history has probably been...less kind.
Here are the things Russians have had to endure between 1894, when Tsar Nicholas came to power, and 1960, when the Nazis were defeated.
The era begins with tragedy in what was supposed to be a good occasion: the tsar's coronation, which descended into a bloody mess due to a misunderstanding. The tsar mishandled the tragedy, already marring his relationship with the Russian people. Some see it as a horrible omen of what was to come.
Let's see what followed:
The Russo-Japanese War (1904-05). Russian defeat (the first for a European state by an Asian Power), 60,000 dead.
The First World War (1914-1917). Russian defeat, 3 million deaths.
The Russian Civil War and famines (1917-1923). Communism rises, 8 million deaths (from famine, terror, genocide, and combat)
The Holodomor and other famines (1932-1933). 7 million deaths in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and other places.
The Red Terror (1936-1938). Stalin consolidates his power even more. 1 million deaths. Among them the military elite.
World War II (1939-1960). Russian (USSR) defeat. The USSR reduced to a puppet of the Nazis. Millions of its people sold into slavery. 71 million people dead.
The Soviet Civil War (1959-?). The Siberian USSR reduced to a squabbling anarchic mess. Countless deaths.
Between 1894-1960, Russia has been through two civil wars, numerous bad governments, a significant loss of its territory, massive genocide and democide, the loss of its cultural heritage, and it has never won a major war. And it has lost roughly 90 million people.
I'm sure some Russian historian has a grim name for this time period. TTL, they'll call it "Tears and Blood."
Sadly, it is one TTL Russia still didn't recover from. Its great cultural heritage has been loss, its territory divided, and its population still not having recovered. Reading about Russian history ITTL will require a lot of resolve not to...cry....
Ya, the USSR is pretty much a shithole. However, Western Alaska is a vibrant part of the most powerful member of the A4 and the Tsarist Republic is doing very nicely and has the close support of the UK.Uh well...
Let me put it this way.
OTL Chinese refer to the period between 1839 to 1949 as the era of humiliation, as you probably know.
For a century, China suffered from numerous foreign interventions, the loss of territory, internal conflict, fragmentation, economic instability, technological backwardness, corruption, and brutal warfare.
China alone lost 70 million people in the Taiping Rebellion...in the mid-19th century!
TTL Russian history has probably been...less kind.
Here are the things Russians have had to endure between 1894, when Tsar Nicholas came to power, and 1960, when the Nazis were defeated.
The era begins with tragedy in what was supposed to be a good occasion: the tsar's coronation, which descended into a bloody mess due to a misunderstanding. The tsar mishandled the tragedy, already marring his relationship with the Russian people. Some see it as a horrible omen of what was to come.
Let's see what followed:
The Russo-Japanese War (1904-05). Russian defeat (the first for a European state by an Asian Power), 60,000 dead.
The First World War (1914-1917). Russian defeat, 3 million deaths.
The Russian Civil War and famines (1917-1923). Communism rises, 8 million deaths (from famine, terror, genocide, and combat)
The Holodomor and other famines (1932-1933). 7 million deaths in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and other places.
The Red Terror (1936-1938). Stalin consolidates his power even more. 1 million deaths. Among them the military elite.
World War II (1939-1960). Russian (USSR) defeat. The USSR reduced to a puppet of the Nazis. Millions of its people sold into slavery. 71 million people dead.
The Soviet Civil War (1959-?). The Siberian USSR reduced to a squabbling anarchic mess. Countless deaths.
Between 1894-1960, Russia has been through two civil wars, numerous bad governments, a significant loss of its territory, massive genocide and democide, the loss of its cultural heritage, and it has never won a major war. And it has lost roughly 90 million people.
I'm sure some Russian historian has a grim name for this time period. TTL, they'll call it "Tears and Blood."
Sadly, it is one TTL Russia still didn't recover from. Its great cultural heritage has been loss, its territory divided, and its population still not having recovered. Reading about Russian history ITTL will require a lot of resolve not to...cry....
I'm sure they were trying to get to some A4 embassy for political asylum. Whether they'd get the chance would be another question, though.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Possibly. But ITTL Russians who live in either the Tsarist Republic or will look at a map and see their country effectively broken in threes. The legacy of 66 years of defeat, government incompetence, invasion, mass terror, economic mismanagement, brutality, and oppression live on into the present.
Whether it is Russia's division or the empty fields that once contained cities.
They do, but unlike IOTL there is very little nostalgia for pre-War Stalinist times (outside the rump USSR). The citizens of the Tsarist Republic are some of the wealthiest (GDP PPP) in Europe, light-years ahead of the German statelets, France, or the rest of the European Peninsula. In general they look at the USSR and mentally see "Siberia", which even in the pre-Revolution era was considered to be "backwards".
The U.S. citizens of Western Alaska only have to look around and remember, even if only through elders, that where they are used to REALLY BE Siberia, one of the poorest, most neglected pieces of a Country that was already poor as hell, repressive as hell, and negligently governed. They also, along with the Republic's citizens, regularly see/hear stories from refugees who manage to get through the USSR's death strips (Meant, according the Soviet government, to prevent the "WESTERN IMPERIALISTS" from attacking the Revolution. This explanation loses some luster when you look and see which way the guns are aimed and on which side of the barriers the concertina wire is emplaced). Folks don't tend to look back much.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I suppose that is a good thing: Tsarist Russia and Western Alaskans are a forward thinking people. ITTL, you don't have a disturbing number of Russians proclaiming Stalin was a wise leader (since ITTL his nation lost, his horrible behavior and stupid policies are far more front and center).
However, is that really worth not only millions of deaths and a 1000 years of culture being destroyed?
@CalBear I got a question. Given that the A4 destroyed Stettin when the Germans rose up in rebellion against the occupation, what would have happened if instead of giving up in sullen surrender, the Germans fought harder and refused to yield even if the A4 destroyed more cities? Would the A4 actually cross the line and decide to outright exterminate the Germans?
Hello CalBear, I enjoyed the timeline.
What happened to Indonesia ITTL since the Netherlands was still occupied. Did it gain it's independence immediately? Was West Papua incorporated into the Australian territory of Papua New Guinea circa 1949, or was it given to Indonesia?
What books or articles did you use for this TL? I'd like to add them to my library.
What happened to Indonesia ITTL since the Netherlands was still occupied. Did it gain it's independence immediately? Was West Papua incorporated into the Australian territory of Papua New Guinea circa 1949, or was it given to Indonesia?
What books or articles did you use for this TL? I'd like to add them to my library.
Exterminate? No. Drop a heavy occupation force? Yes.
The A4 can bring in additional "international peacekeepers" from the usual sources (Poland, Tsarist Republic, Ukraine, Vietnam and the Philippines) who currently are the contracted groups that are supported by fees on the various statelets as part of the Peace Treaty as well as significant forces from the major A4 states. After the recovery of Chinese made weapons, there is even a fair chance that India, under the terms of the Treaty, might step in.
The reason for Stettin was to make an unmistakable statement; "we just destroyed this place with rocks thrown from the Moon, we can keep this up all day, every day", to nip what was going to very likely turn into a serious Germany-wide revolt. The restrictions on the statelets are, understandably, much despised, especially by the generations who had nothing to do with a war their great grandparents stared almost 70 years ago. Imagine if Germany was still under the control of the Allies, split into four occupation zones, in OTL's 2007 with absolutely no hope, no matter how far one cares to look into the future, of circumstances changing. The goal was to stop what could have been a serious bloodbath (untrained folks with cheap knock-off of PPSh-41s and some scavenged WAllied circa 1959 small arms would be slaughtered against modern armored/mechanized) by putting the fear of God (or the A4) into all concerned. It was seen as a reasonable trade-off for what would have been wholesale destruction of infrastructure rebuild over a couple generations across all the statelets and probably 3-4x the total casualties by the time all was said and done.
However, the A4 wiped Stettin off the map, not just to make a point or even to face the Mathematics on possible casualties among German civilians, they did it because the entire Europe IS Equal movement, at least the German aspects, frightened the A4 leadership. What they saw was the "band getting back together", didn't matter that it had been 47 years since the last reunion tour, they didn't like the old stuff and were not looking forward to the new shit. In the eyes of the A4, not just political or even military, leaders, but among the electorate of all the A4 countries (and a fair percentage of other UN members) a United Germany simply can never be allowed to happen. It is paranoid as all hell, but no one can see that because of the mass graves getting in the way.
It sucks to be Germany in this universe.
Hopefully one day they'll be freed from this.
Hopefully one day they'll be freed from this.
Indonesia was granted independence in the early 50s. The Dutch Government in Exile was... unthrilled. The U.S., however, made it REALLY clear that the Colonial Era was over. Period. Full Stop. After the end of the European Phase most, not all, but most (which BTW, pissed off the folks both who were not granted the opportunity just as much as the former holders of the colonies) of the former colonial possessions of the European countries whose troops fought against the WAllies (i.e. everyone on the European Peninsula excluding Portugal and Spain) were given the chance for self determination votes. That turned out somewhat differently than the WAllied leadership, especially Washington, expected, but whatever the vote was was, in general, honored. Virtually no one voted to re-associate with their former Colonial "Homes" (which was unsurprising since those former political leaders were dirt poor, over-run with bio-weapon caused epidemics, and generally in worse shape than the far off ex-colonies).
Papua New Guinea's history is fairly similar to OTL. Only real difference is just how much more potent Australia is as a member of the A4. Other countries, as a rule, tend to give the A4 and its close allies (Vietnam, the Philippines, Poland, etc.) plenty of room at the bar. The Western Papua "Act of Free Choice" referendum was handled very differently ATL. The result was, unsurprisingly, independence. While Indonesia was quite displeased by this, a series of joint naval exercises featuring aircraft carriers from all four A4 states (total of 12 carriers initially, with around 80 escorts and support vessels) just before, during, and annually for several years after the Referendum went a long way toward ensuring fair play. Subtle is not really found in the A4 lexicon.
Research books? There were literally hundreds of books, magazines, and journals, including some tidbits I picked up from people who had been in WW II. I couldn't begin to list them.
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