The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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OTL German industry was VERY inefficient until Speer took over later in the war, and even then he had to fight all the separate fiefdoms squabbling over materials & labor. Here the Germans have more, but I am assuming they are not using them very well as they have not (?yet) reached enough of a crisis that they decide to make some moves to rationalize.

Had the Germans begun at least several years before the war (preferably 34-35) to work with the Japanese in sending pilots, crews etc to work with the Kido Butai & also discuss carrier & a/c design they might be in a position to have a few carriers by 41-42 able to operate in combat, although still way behind US/UK in experience. Even handwave Goering's ability to screw it up as seeing a naval air arm (or even luftwaffe on ships) as a no-no, the problem then becomes how to get those carriers in to the Atlantic, and also how to get them home as opposed to 1-way runs. It was hard enough getting subs out, let alone a carrier battle group.

My 2 cents - looking forward to more.

PS: Manhattan Project will be even more of a priority here, also more push to develop B-35, B-36. The need for long range bomber more urgent - so Northrup's B-35 may not be starved for development resources and you see it by late 1944/early 1945. B-36 a little later (get both OTL was a funds crunch and B-36 got the nod). Hmm allied flying wing bombers vs Nazi (Horten) flying wing fighters....
 
Why do I have this vision of "Crossroads-Baker" going off underneath the German fleet?

And I have a pretty good idea as to how the Atlantic Wall is going to be breached... I think that nuclear weapons would end up being sort of an "outside context problem" for the Nazis.

This is pretty good. Sometimes OTL looks near perfect. To think that things could have been far worse...
 

CalBear

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Here is the newest installment.

Hope you find it interesting.

Again, virtually all of the concepts found here were discussed at some point by the Nazi leadership. (You literally couldn't make some of this stuff up)

Comments very welcome.

The re-organization of the Greater German military and its allies

In understanding the eventual events of the final Western Allies – Reich clash it is important to have an overview of the evolution of the Greater German military structure and how its allies and client states fit into the overall European defense network.

With the defeat of the Soviet field armies and the apparent Allies inability to make an immediate entry into occupied Europe Berlin gradually altered the structure of its own forces and began to make increasing use of the military organizations and/or available manpower of their conquests. In this structure there were two different types of non Reich forces existed, National forces and “Pan-European” units.

National forces were fielded by nations that had more or less joined the German wars voluntarily, these were chiefly forces from Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Italy, Hungary, Norway, Romania, and Slovakia, with France joining these early allied states in late 1945, The National forces had notional independent command under their respective governments, but all were obligated to a greater or lesser degree, to follow Berlin’s specific directions in military matters. All of the National forces were able to, if they desired, manufacture their own weapons and other equipment, including in the case of Italy and France, their own aircraft and warship designs. Overall, the National forces, and their home countries, gave many of the appearances of independent states, at least on the surface. In actual fact, each of these countries were utterly dominated politically by Germany, with political leaders selected by Nazi Party leaders in each country with the final approval of Berlin necessary before any changes were made. Each independent European ally also had its own secret police force, based on the SS Gestapo, and staffed by fanatical fascists who often were more radical than their German counterparts, which crushed any signs of dissent and generally maintained a reign of terror under the oversight of SS Headquarters in Berlin. National military forces were also generally deployed outside their home country (French troops, as an example, were the most numerous garrison forces in southern Italy and Sicily) which reduced the chances of any sort of unfortunate Nationalist uprisings, although these did occasionally occur only to be crushed with swift brutality. While the overall quality and morale of the Nation forces was uneven, all were more than sufficient to work as fortress troops with some units being equal to any pure “Old German” formation.

Countries that had not been found to be sufficiently politically reliable to be granted the independence of the Reich client states were not spared from supporting the Reich. In these countries there were three different levels of conscription all lasting 12 years. The first level was effectively voluntary, as soldiers in SS battalions. These volunteers were limited to those who met the Reich’s Aryan ideals in appearance and were, for the most part, fascists and/or dedicated anti-communists.

The second level of conscripts formed the “Pan-European” units. These conscripts were subjected to brutal discipline, required to learn German and subject to on-going “political education”. Discipline in these units was maintained by a combination of fear and blackmail; officers in these units were not required to even file reports if they executed any enlisted man below the rank of Sergeant and desertion was punished, not by execution, but by the liquidation of the deserter’s entire family out to 1st cousins (to remove the “family’s taint” from the population). Generally these forces were used against partisans in the East or, if conscripted from eastern populations as Fortress troops or common laborers.

The third level of conscription was effectively a death sentence as members of labor battalions. This level was reserved for deserters (including those from National forces) those suspected of political activity, criminal acts, individuals with physical or mental deformity (if able to work, those unable to work were sent to extermination camps), and those of “questionable Blood”. Those unfortunate enough to be assigned to these battalions were used to clear booby traps, mining, agricultural labor, and in many cases medical or scientific experimentation. The 12 year term of service for these conscripts was purely for show. Their actual fate was extermination through labor.


With the organization of the rest of occupied Europe and Reich client state manpower into military formations the Nazi Party proceeded to remake its own forces. In this it was again guided as much by ideology as by common sense or tradition. The German Army, despite its great successes in the European Pulse, was nearly dismantled in the immediate aftermath of its victory and replaced by a military wing of the Party, the Waffen-SS. The dismantling of the Heer (as the German Army was then known) had long been a goal of Hitler and his advisors, one that was confirmed as necessary when Heer troops and officers from the most junior platoon leaders to some of the General Staff’s senior members protested when the Heer was used to round up and, in some cases, execute Jews, Roma, and other undesirables in what the traditional Heer members found to be dishonorable conditions. Many of these troops, including senior officers, were either demoted or placed under the authority of SS commanders who found the professional military to be “squeamish” when it came to achieving the goals of Greater Germany. With the introduction of National forces and Pan-European units into garrison duties, the Waffen-SS became a mainly armored/mechanized formation, with much of its complement assigned to oversee loyalty of the client militaries and act as mobile reserves to reinforce the defenses of the Atlantic Wall. A separate group of SS troops, these mainly comprised of former Heer enlisted men who has committed some minor offense with long time Party and SS officials as commanders and senior NCOs, were organized into Einsatzgruppen with the mission of hunting down and liquidating fugitive Jews, Roma, partisans, and escaped Soviet PoWs. This was a difficult assignment, with removal to a penal battalion becoming the fate of troops who failed to show proper commitment to the task at hand.

The traditions of both the Luftwaffe (the German Air Force) and Kreigsmarine were altered less than that of the Heer, but both were heavily influenced by the Nazi Party leadership. The Luftwaffe was under the direct command of Herman Goring, a WW I fighter pilot of some considerable skills who was an early part of the Nazi movement, who in addition to his role as Air Force commander was also the Deputy Fuhrer of the Reich. Goring was remarkably jealous of the Luftwaffe’s privileges and position. Anything having to do with combat the air, from ground based anti-aircraft artillery to Paratroopers was, in Goring’s opinion, property of the Luftwaffe leading to the unique circumstance of the Air Force being a military inside the military, with light infantry units and even a heavy armor division sharing the Table of Organization with anti-aircraft battalions, fighter, bomber, and observation aircraft squadrons all reporting to the same command staff. So protective was the Luftwaffe’s Chief of his position that the Naval Air Arm took orders, not from the Kriegsmarine, but from the Luftwaffe with the aircraft being the property of Goring’s Branch, not of the service that owned the ships off which the planes operated. The Luftwaffe also was the true commander of the various National air forces that were supposedly under the command of their independent states.

The Kriegsmarine, of all the German Service Branches, maintained its traditions beyond all others. Alone among the armed forces of Europe, the Kreigsmarine maintained the traditional military salute common among the world’s militaries, as well as retaining many of the same traditions that would have been recognizable to naval officers from the turn of the century. It was the least political of the Branches, although Party membership was nearly as important as actual skill when promotions were announced. Nearly destroyed in the first two years of the war, the German surface fleet was rebuilt and expanded by Hitler, as much as a symbol of equality with the Allies as with any specific mission in mind, with surprising speed thanks to the resources of the occupied territories and client states. This was especially true after the de facto 1946 cease fire when the end of regular bombing allowed construction to proceed in an orderly fashion.

The Allied Pacific Campaign and the shape of the Western Forces
 
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CalBear

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Why do I have this vision of "Crossroads-Baker" going off underneath the German fleet?

And I have a pretty good idea as to how the Atlantic Wall is going to be breached... I think that nuclear weapons would end up being sort of an "outside context problem" for the Nazis.

This is pretty good. Sometimes OTL looks near perfect. To think that things could have been far worse...


That is the really scary part. While I have obviously taken a few liberties, this is actually a low order of probability outcome, especially in the specific case of Stalingrad. The Germans literally came within 1,000 meters of taking The Crossing. If they had it is likely that the City would have fallen. If it had, Stalin would no doubt have gone into one of his famous rages with the normal bloody results.

Hopefully, you will find the resolution of the military phase of interest, although it might not be quite as explosive :)p) as you are thinking.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
You bet. The Nazi's plans were so far beyond scary that it is still, even with all the horrors that have happened since 1945, almost unimaginable.

Thanks for the feedback.

But also immensely stupid. Its a good thing the Anglosphere-Nazi war is happening in the 1950s or Nazi Europe would have practically destroyed itself. It would be like boxing Mike Tyson! after years of self-mutilation and heroin use.
 
Great update Cal:) Looking forward to the next update which as always like all things Pacific and World War 2 related is your specialty :)
 

CalBear

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Today's update.

Comments welcome as always.

The Allied Pacific Campaign and the shaping of the Western Forces

With the collapse of the USSR the Western Allies suddenly found themselves in a quandary. They had agreed that the Nazi state was the more serious threat and to follow a “Europe First” strategy despite the loud protests of the CNO, Admiral Ernest King, who believed that Japan needed to be brought to book for its attack on Pearl Harbor and other Western Allied state colonies and bases across most of the Pacific. With the loss of their Soviet Ally London and Washington found themselves suddenly facing a ground force exceeding 200 divisions, meaning that any assault on Fortress Europe would require 600 divisions (using the accepted 3-1 attacker/defender ratio in use at the time). Even with the combined strength of the entire British Commonwealth and the United States of America there was little hope of gathering this level of troops in the foreseeable future meaning that the Allies would need to reduce the Heer’s force size prior to any liberation of Europe was possible.

The only reasonable option for the Allies was an air offensive using heavy and medium bombers with the goal of damaging German civilian morale and the German industrial base sufficiently to allow a lower number of ground forces to make a successful attack. This approach ignored the fact that bombing had not broken the will of the German population despite regular attacks since 1940 and had none nothing but set the resolve of the British people as they faced ongoing attacks by the Luftwaffe. What followed was a massive war involving armies totaling well over a million men where almost no one on either side ever touched the ground of the enemy’s territory except after being shot down. When viewed on a percentage basis the losses of the aircrews on both sides exceeded those of infantry forces in 1917 France. Even the addition of American 8th Air Force bomber wings in daylight precision attacks to the long established RAF Bomber Command night area bombing did little to deter the German war effort. Whether this strategic bombing campaign would have, as it was claimed, have worn down the German ability to wage war (as did happen to Japan) if the USSR had not fallen will never be known, but with the release of the huge number of aircraft from activity in the East, combined with the unplanned, but very real, benefits from the decision to establish major factory sites in the General Government and western Ukrainian areas of occupation which were out of range of even the longest range Allied single engine escort fighter available, the P-51 Mustang ensured that the Allied efforts would be no more successful than the Luftwaffe’s efforts against Great Britain (at least until the late introduction of the F8B). By late 1944 both sides were nearly exhausted from the continuous poundings when the Reich upped the ante with the A-4 guided missile. The destruction of the A-4 sites by USMC Corsairs carrying Tiny Tim unguided rockets on September 22, 1945 was one of the few true successes of the air war despite the heavy losses experienced by the attacking squadrons. Operation Bulldog also featured the first jet v. jet combat when USAAF Shooting Star fighters operating out of Scotland in support of the operation tangled with Luftwaffe Me-262 fighters attacking the withdrawing Marine F4U.

The Allied war in the Pacific against Japan would, had it not been for the European Pulse, be recalled as the most vicious since the introduction of gunpowder. Almost from the opening moments it represented almost as much a clash of cultures as of arms. Imperial Japanese forces, steeped in a highly distilled version of Bushido (the traditional Japanese Way of the Warrior) viewed prisoners and surrender in a vastly different manner than their Anglo-American opponents. These differences rapidly turned the war into one fought with remarkable intensity, mistrust, and outright hatred on both sides. Japanese troops were found to feign surrender, making it less likely that their Western foes would accept surrenders, which meant that fewer Japanese tried to surrender, in an escalating loop that ended with Japanese civilians throwing themselves and their children from cliff tops on Saipan and Okinawa. By the same token Japanese forces, especially in the case of junior officers, treated Allied prisoners in what can only be described as a savage fashion that would have been very familiar to observers of SS troops in the General Government area or Ukraine. This brutality was magnified by the theater of operation where nearly all combat took place in either jungle environments or on small islands which offered no opportunity for retreat or even reasonable withdrawal. Most Japanese island garrisons suffered 95% or greater casualties with almost all survivors being conscripted Korean laborers. Jungle combat was little better, with wounded on both sides suffering horribly, what little evacuation resources available used for one’s own troops with the predictable outcome for those who were left in the septic conditions of the front lines.

The savage warfare on land was closely mirrored at sea and in the air. Japanese pilots, even early in the war, demonstrated a great willingness to conduct ramming attacks against enemy aircraft in addition to the more common (on both sides) act of crashing a damaged aircraft into an enemy vessel (The details of the Kamikaze tactics utilized by the Japanese from mid 1944 onward are examined in detail in Chapter Seven of Volume II).

As Royal Navy units began to reach the Pacific Theater of Operations the basic philosophical differences between fleet of Great Britain and the United States became rapidly apparent. American ships tended to be more heavily armed and armored with the notable exception of aircraft carriers where British designers had built in an armored flight deck for virtually all of the RN carriers the USN uniformly used wooden flight decks with an armored hanger deck below. The RN believed that this made its ships more battle worthy, while the USN believed that their ships were easier to repair. As events following the Japanese introduction of kamikaze demonstrated, there were elements of truth to both positions. The main advantage the USN had over its British ally was in the areas of aircraft designs and underway replenishment. Both of these advantages allowed the USN to maintain a much larger carrier based air force than the RN, with the American carriers also have a significant advantage in number and quality of aircraft embarked (the poor treatment of the FAA by its RAF cousin in the area of aircraft procurement is outlined in Appendix A). Still, the two navies quickly learned to work together, with the Americans finding the early addition of RAN and RNZN ships of great benefit in the early months of the war. Cooperation at the senior command level was less friendly, with CNO King often regarding the RN to be more of a rival than an asset. Had it not been for the strength of President Roosevelt as Commander in Chief it is possible that King’s deep mistrust of all things British may well have caused a serious rift between the two allies, as was, the relationship at senior command was correct, albeit frosty.

The July 1943 decision to have the Royal Navy and Commonwealth forces concentrate on the Dutch East Indies and former British possessions of Burma and Malaya also reduced the amount of friction with Admiral King, although the decision did place the Commonwealth forces partially under the command of General Douglas MacArthur depending on their exact deployment. The troops who suffered this misfortune, along with their commanders, would long rue the day.

Possibly the most interesting decision of the entire Pacific Phase was the decision of the Allies to NOT use the Atom Bomb against Japan. It was, without question, the most controversial decision made in the last year of the Pacific Phase. The decision was driven by intelligence reports smuggled out through neutral Sweden that convinced the Combined Joint Chiefs, PM Churchill and the new President of the U.S., Harry Truman that the Germans had concluded that the Atom Bomb was impossible (the superb disinformation campaign waged by the remnants of the KGB & GRU, both of which had thoroughly penetrated the Manhattan Project against the Nazi nuclear program is brilliantly examined in Patrick Drake’s Stalin’s Last Victory). Knowing this, the decision to keep the Bomb a secret while constructing a stockpile of some size was clearly the correct strategic decision, although the disastrous impact of the decision on the Japanese civilian population has caused much post war debate.

Unlike the European air war, the American strategic campaign against Japan was, if not decisive on its own, unquestionably helped drive Japan to its knees. Between the massive firebombing of Japanese cities which resulted in the destruction of every Japanese city with a pre-war population of more than 75,000, mining of the Inland Sea, Yellow Sea and the less well known, but perhaps more decisive, mining campaign waged from the Aleutians (in dreadful weather and flying conditions) against the sea lanes leading from Vladivostok to the Japanese Home Islands that cut Japan off from its last contact with its European Axis partners the USAAF crushed Japan as an industrial power. When combined with the submarine blockade of Japan, the eventual carrier and tactical air force bombing and strafing effort against Japan’s already questionable transportation network the B-29 proved itself to be a truly devastating weapon.

It is, of course, the sheer level of success that the blockade and air campaign achieved that makes it so controversial. In the last two decades their have been a number of well researched books and military simulations that argue that as few as four nuclear weapons would have caused Emperor Hirohito to sue for Peace (although most researchers, as well as a recent War Game at the U.S. Naval War College, in which the author participated, indicate that as many as nine weapons would have been required to drive the Japanese to capitulate). Even if the generally accepted nine atom bombs had been needed, this would have resulted in no more than 800,000 direct deaths, with probably twice that in early mortality from radiation effects, or roughly 2.5 million civilian and military deaths. This is well under the estimated 4,000,000 who died in the continued fire bombings, from starvation, exposure, and illness in the Japanese Home Islands (including early mortality from the after effects of malnutrition and increased infant mortality in the 1946-56 reconstruction period) and among the cut-off Japanese military units before the Japanese Unconditional Surrender on November 11, 1946. In considering the far increased number of casualties in Japan, it is important to remember that it was wartime, and that the only consideration that was proper for Truman at the time was what would reduce Allied casualties in both the Pacific and, later, in the ETO.

“Warm” war and the decision to invade
 
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I like how you make the OTL controversy over using atom bombs into an ATL controversy over not using atom bombs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

Can't wait for the *Normandy. Nukes abound, I guess. Probably Anglo-American air strikes against German naval construction (can't very well do that in the Black Sea, after all!), right?
 
Given a much larger involvment by the British in the East, why si McA still in charge?
Given that the large majority of troops in the area will be Empire, and as they have some better Generals available now?
And far less reason to fritter Oz troops away on McA's ideas, where they can be used more effectively in a SE Asia campaign?

Unless the US is supplying the troops? In which case, hes only killing Americans now..:p

Oh, one other thing...the 3:1 forces needed isnt militarily correct...
The allies will need a higher ratio to break through the 'crust' of a German continental defence, but after that, and more mobile warfare, it becomes a lot closer to parity.
You also need to take away the German divisions needed for occupation duties. After that, the true ratio needed is probably more like 3:2. They'd probably be looking at around 250 divisions (remember, quite a few of those 200 German divisions are of questionable quality).

In theory, the resources of the USA and Empire can achieve this quite handily - they have the population. If the Empire draws properly on India, they EASILY have the population... Its more a matter of being prepared to accept the losses.
 

CalBear

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Given a much larger involvment by the British in the East, why si McA still in charge?
Given that the large majority of troops in the area will be Empire, and as they have some better Generals available now?
And far less reason to fritter Oz troops away on McA's ideas, where they can be used more effectively in a SE Asia campaign?

Unless the US is supplying the troops? In which case, hes only killing Americans now..:p

Oh, one other thing...the 3:1 forces needed isnt militarily correct...
The allies will need a higher ratio to break through the 'crust' of a German continental defence, but after that, and more mobile warfare, it becomes a lot closer to parity.
You also need to take away the German divisions needed for occupation duties. After that, the true ratio needed is probably more like 3:2. They'd probably be looking at around 250 divisions (remember, quite a few of those 200 German divisions are of questionable quality).

In theory, the resources of the USA and Empire can achieve this quite handily - they have the population. If the Empire draws properly on India, they EASILY have the population... Its more a matter of being prepared to accept the losses.

The German divisions ITTL are not the badly chopped up ones of OTL. The Allies also do not have good intel, at this time, of the losses incurred by the Germans. What the do know is that the forces they are now facing on entry into France have trippled and they do not face a badly demoralized enemy.

It is true that you only need a 3-1 advantage when making the initial assault, but there is not, in 1943 or 1944 anywhere on the Continent where they can achieve that number, nor can they achieve air supremacy in the current circumstances.

The AO in the Pacific are the same as IOTL. Many Australian troops fall under the Doug's Southwest Pacific command, more ITTL because there are more available .

Thanks for the feedback.
 

CalBear

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I like how you make the OTL controversy over using atom bombs into an ATL controversy over not using atom bombs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

Can't wait for the *Normandy. Nukes abound, I guess. Probably Anglo-American air strikes against German naval construction (can't very well do that in the Black Sea, after all!), right?


They can do a lot of construction in the Black Sea. They are now a country with a border on the Black Sea, so most of the Treaty Limits have gone away. If the Turks were to jump to the Allies, then a Black Sea Fleet would be bottled up.

Of course once out of the Black Sea, they are in the Agean, then the Med. Maybe there would be a significant naval action in the region if that were to occur. Hmmm...

Thanks for the feedback.
 
The decision was driven by intelligence reports smuggled out through neutral Sweden that convinced the Combined Joint Chiefs, PM Churchill and the new President of the U.S., Harry Truman that the Germans had concluded that the Atom Bomb was impossible (the superb disinformation campaign waged by the remnants of the KGB & GRU, both of which had thoroughly penetrated the Manhattan Project against the Nazi nuclear program is brilliantly examined in Patrick Drake’s Stalin’s Last Victory).

Very interesting way of keeping the bomb out of things for now, though it bodes ill for the Narsties. The moral agonizing about the decision not to use the bomb is wonderfully ironic.

I understand you don't like MacArthur much, but you're actually doing quite a good job of reproducing the tone and style of a magisterial history and the snark against MacArthur is jarring.
 
They can do a lot of construction in the Black Sea. They are now a country with a border on the Black Sea, so most of the Treaty Limits have gone away. If the Turks were to jump to the Allies, then a Black Sea Fleet would be bottled up.

Of course once out of the Black Sea, they are in the Agean, then the Med. Maybe there would be a significant naval action in the region if that were to occur. Hmmm...

Thanks for the feedback.

I know they could do construction in the Black Sea, but considering that it would have to pass not one but two sets of straits (though one of those sets is pretty well open at this point, the other set is most certainly not) before it could engage anything other than the Med fleet (which I do not read Germany as having an interest in, compared to the Atlantic and GB), it doesn't strike me as likely that they'll prefer to build there instead of the Baltic. Particularly as all of the German shipyards are on the North or Baltic seas in any case.

EDIT: Oh yes, with the quote about the nuclear disinformation campaign referenced just above, I'm a little confused. What happened was that the KGB/GRU penetrated both the Nazi and US nuclear programs and convinced the former that it wasn't possible while stealing data from the latter, correct?
 

CalBear

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I know they could do construction in the Black Sea, but considering that it would have to pass not one but two sets of straits (though one of those sets is pretty well open at this point, the other set is most certainly not) before it could engage anything other than the Med fleet (which I do not read Germany as having an interest in, compared to the Atlantic and GB), it doesn't strike me as likely that they'll prefer to build there instead of the Baltic. Particularly as all of the German shipyards are on the North or Baltic seas in any case.

EDIT: Oh yes, with the quote about the nuclear disinformation campaign referenced just above, I'm a little confused. What happened was that the KGB/GRU penetrated both the Nazi and US nuclear programs and convinced the former that it wasn't possible while stealing data from the latter, correct?


Not exactly

The KGB & GRU decided the one thing left to them to really screw with the Reich was to leak information to the Germans that the U.S. and UK had made the same discovery that Heisenberg thought he had made, that the critical mass needed to make a weapon work was so large that a practical weapon wasn't possible.

What is left of Russia isn't capable of putting forth the effort to build a weapon. The Peace Treaty is designed to suck the Russians dry both in cash and materials to keep them from rebuilding a military force and threatening Greater Germany (rather like the Versailles was designed).

The GRU also still has people in place and active in Germany who are situated to get good Intel into Allied hands through third parties that can not be traced back to Russia.

Obviously, the Russians are hoping that the West will crush the Nazis and the USSR can get back in business.
 
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