The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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Presley, in OTL, served in the 3rd Armored, while Johnny Cash enlisted in the USAF in OTL. Cash, for one, could easily come out of the war perfectly normal.

And Elvis could do just fine with a large helping of "Johnny Cash-ness" and for that matter a dose of "James Dean-ness".

But seriously, a cameo or two from the likes of Elvis and Yeager would add to the coolness factor of this very fine TL.

Hendrix and Garcia were both born in 1942 so theoretically they could be serving as volunteers, but most likely they'd still be in basic training I reckon.

HoC
 
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Well, Eurasia might be a mess but Central and South America from what I've gathered has not gone through the banana republic upheavals and commie revolutions of OTL... Africa is going through a 'softer/gentler' decolonization which means it might not be totally effed as in OTL... SE Asia / Oceania is incubating into a potential powerhouse much sooner than OTL... India is a unified 1000lb economic gorilla and partner in the war...

I'd bet if we looked at TTL's world GDP 2010 as compared to OTL's 2010 GDP we might see it be the same or higher even accounting for the vast loss of population and economy in Eurasia and China because of a very good probability that SE Asia / Oceania has risen to 1st world status along with India. South and Central America are much more 1st and 2nd world and Africa actually has a chance of having some 1st and 2nd world nations as well.

This is because unlike OTL with its diametrically opposed bi polar ideologies, both of which might be viewed as valid and reasonable you have a bi-polar world where one pole is so odious and disgusting it has no appeal to the outside world or real influence. You have the near complete discreditation of Communism. And finally you have a US/UK/ANZAC so focused on the Warm War and the resumption of hostilities that they have by necessity been forced to ignore or leave large parts of their plans to meddle in political world affairs on cruise control outside of "If you let the Nazis in we will squash you like insects..." while still doing economic business with the rest of the world.

IMO this reality of many nations being left to much greater self determination rather than being yanked around by the US and Soviets or left in the lurch by an abrupt decolonization (and then yanked around by the US and Soviets) might very well be the Mothra of all Butterflies post war. There will be far less arms worldwide without the US and Soviet Mil/Ind complexes churning them out and I think the fact that many tin pot dictators, tyrants and El Presidentes will not be able to play off mommy Russia vs daddy US will likewise be huge. Throw in the fact that the US/UK/ANZAC TTL will be much more willing to get its hands dirty as opposed to proxy wars and everyone can see that effing around with the Anglo Americans is suicidal stupidity probably means a lot of the strife of OTL is either smoothed over or glossed over (although I can see the amusing situation of two movements in a nation in upheaval accusing each other of being Nazis to try and bring the Anglo Americans in to crush the other side for them).

1. I don't see any evidence that India is a '1000' pound power. While it is in better shape than many allied nations, CalBear hasn't said the the fundemental issues that surround it - the Hindu-Muslim divide for example (which far precede the POD here) are gone. The pressure of the war has meant that it has stayed unified...but once Berlin is a smoking hole in the ground, those repressed issues will arise.

2. Like India, South and Central America are presumbably in better shape than most, and maybe even more than in OTL as the USA has traded and invested more with them. But the pressures that exist there in OTL - the vast gulf between rich and poor, despot dictators, etc., are probably still there. While the money is flowing in from El Norte, all is well, but again, once the Nazis are gone, I gotta wonder.

3. SE Asia and Oceania are developing true, but there's no regional cohesiveness, and no industry. A lot of what has happened there over the last half-century has been due to Japan's industrial strength and market. Japan is dead and any investment is coming from America only.

4. I've said it before on this excellent TL, and I'll say it again; At the conclusion of this war, there will be one intact industrial economy (the USA), one semi-intact one (the UK), and that's it. Further, the USA will less wealthly in this TTL's 1960 than in OTL's 1960 because by then it had 15 years of invigorating trade with Europe. Here, nothing of the sort has happened, and I do not believe that TTL's Oceania and Latin America can make up for that deficit.

5. I do not believe that by 2010, GDP will approach that of OTL. Europe will take decades to recover - it in OTL it contributes a huge chunk of GDP - and here it will contribute far less even after fifty years of peace (assuming this war will end in 1960 or so). The one bright spot I see is less defense spending - no one will be able to begin to complete with the USA/UK alliance - but there's no enough of a 'peace dividend' there to make up the difference.

Mike Turcotte
 
OTL Cuba was raising a Division of Troops when the war ended. ITTL that Division would have been raised and continued. ?A Cameo by Serg. Fidel Castro?.

?I wonder if the Woman's Baseball League would have continued, or even expanded?

No Conspiracy between the Auto & Tire companies to destroy the Trolley System.

No Lewistowns. More Sub-Urban Complete Towns, With Trolley/Train Connections to the Larger Urban Centre.
 
One thing I think - after 20 years of war/warm war/hot war, sacrifices, rationing, bombs, the draft, etc, I think people in the UK and USA will CUT LOOSE after this - the 60's will be one giant party of relief...

Or maybe it'll be even worse as the USA, Canada and the UK try to maintain some sanity in a world bombed and depopulated back to the near-stone age.

Mike Turcotte

I have to agree with the first option. After 2 DECADES, thats DECADES, of near-constant rationing, there will be a HUGE consumer boom. I mean look at the 50's, and that was only like 1/4 the rationing were seeing now.
 
...I don't see any evidence that India is a '1000' pound power. While it is in better shape than many allied nations, CalBear hasn't said the the fundemental issues that surround it - the Hindu-Muslim divide for example (which far precede the POD here) are gone. The pressure of the war has meant that it has stayed unified...but once Berlin is a smoking hole in the ground, those repressed issues will arise.

I think CalBear confirmed (or let stand unchallenged) statements that TTL India is a full partner in the Commonwealth (equal to Canada & Australia) and is providing a very large portion of the Allied land forces. Hell, it was the Poles and the Indians that indirectly put Himmler in power by giving Hitler a stroke <LOL> by smashing his counterattack near Arras. It was mentioned as part of that battle report how well kitted-out (esp. in heavy artillery) the Indian units were.

Hero of Canton
 
I think CalBear confirmed (or let stand unchallenged) statements that TTL India is a full partner in the Commonwealth (equal to Canada & Australia) and is providing a very large portion of the Allied land forces. Hell, it was the Poles and the Indians that indirectly put Himmler in power by giving Hitler a stroke <LOL> by smashing his counterattack near Arras. It was mentioned as part of that battle report how well kitted-out (esp. in heavy artillery) the Indian units were.

Hero of Canton

I have no doubt that India can contribute considerable manpower to the Allied war effort. However, how are those troops equiped and supplied? More than likely by the USA or UK - not Indian factories.

Mike Turcotte
 
And supplied from US/UK factories by US/UK hulls too.

I completely agree gentlemen. Sounds like winning combination of; Indian manpower+US production+UK transport = Nutz to the Nazis!

By virtue of that participation and the tens of thousands of casualties it will cost, once victory is finally achieved India will enjoy greater status and influence than any other nation other than the USA and the UK. Probably more than all the other "non-English-speaking" nations combined. (Though as a member of the Commonwealth wouldn't they technically count as UK too?)

Now then...Prime Minister Gandhi...has a nice ring to it.....

Huzzah sahib!

HoC
 
By virtue of that participation and the tens of thousands of casualties it will cost, once victory is finally achieved India will enjoy greater status and influence than any other nation other than the USA and the UK.


I think ITTL India is generally politically equal to the other Dominions and not yet economically equal to the other Dominions.

Of course, India's economy has no where to go but up and, ITTL, it seems this independent-in-all-but name India as avoided some of the Fabian socialist thinking which hobbled the OTL's India for far too long
 
I think ITTL India is generally politically equal to the other Dominions and not yet economically equal to the other Dominions.

Of course, India's economy has no where to go but up and, ITTL, it seems this independent-in-all-but name India as avoided some of the Fabian socialist thinking which hobbled the OTL's India for far too long

I agree, in fact by 2010 ITTL I would not be surprised to find India being in the position China is in OTL -- the economic giant coming up fast behind the USA. Hence my jests about most of the UK PMs of the late 20th-21st centuries all being named either Gandhi or Singh. Also, with her population hopefully far beyond the reach of Herr Himmler's ULTIMATE VENGEANCE WEAPON India would be well placed to take over the reins of the Commonwealth if something very very bad should happen to Mother England in 1959-60 or so.....

Hero of Canton
 
I agree, in fact by 2010 ITTL I would not be surprised to find India being in the position China is in OTL -- the economic giant coming up fast behind the USA. Hence my jests about most of the UK PMs of the late 20th-21st centuries all being named either Gandhi or Singh. Also, with her population hopefully far beyond the reach of Herr Himmler's ULTIMATE VENGEANCE WEAPON India would be well placed to take over the reins of the Commonwealth if something very very bad should happen to Mother England in 1959-60 or so.....

Hero of Canton


while I agree that India will be an extremely powerful force in this TL, there is NO. WAY. India will lead a new commonwealth with a destroyed Britain. The only thing keeping the original commonwealth going was momentum, and you lose that with an Indian-led one. No Britain, no commonwealth
 
while I agree that India will be an extremely powerful force in this TL, there is NO. WAY. India will lead a new commonwealth with a destroyed Britain. The only thing keeping the original commonwealth going was momentum, and you lose that with an Indian-led one. No Britain, no commonwealth

Alas, I fear you are right, So Canada, South Africa, or Australia as the heir? My money would be on Australia.

HoC
 
Alas, I fear you are right, So Canada, South Africa, or Australia as the heir? My money would be on Australia.

HoC

If there would be one, which honestly I doubt, Canada's too "51'st US state"-ish (sorry to all canadians on the board :D), South Africa doesn't care, and Australia, well, when have you last heard a news story about australia? Honestly, when? They're so far away from everything else. hmmm.....perhaps Hong Kong? :rolleyes::D
 
If India got Home Rule in the early '40's, I has had 12+ years to work on building it's Industrial base. I see the US supporting this.


I just had a wonder. ? Wonder if the PILL will still be invented in the early '60's?. ? Maybe earlier with increased Bio Research?


Hey!! No Playboy :eek: :eek: ?Wonder what happens to MM?
 

Das_Colonel

Banned
If there would be one, which honestly I doubt, Canada's too "51'st US state"-ish (sorry to all canadians on the board :D), South Africa doesn't care, and Australia, well, when have you last heard a news story about australia? Honestly, when? They're so far away from everything else. hmmm.....perhaps Hong Kong? :rolleyes::D



I've certainly heard more lately than I have about Hong Kong...
 
I personally think that India will remain in the Commonwealth, but will have a strong Republican movement along the lines of Australia's. Is their any chance of a map of the front lines?
 
Regarding India, I would be a bit surprised if the long period of war and near-total cutoff of European trade hadn't spurred a local expansion of some industries, at the very least war-related ones.

Previous Indian production for export probably fell by the wayside relatively quickly given the sudden and total absence of European and Japanese demand for such commodities, but compared to Africa, India (at least in places) has a much greater endowment of infrastructure and ports complimentary to its large population. Given near absolute domestic autonomy, the Indian government is unlikely to be at all hostile to domestic developments that in the past would have caused British producers to lobby for controls or protection, and the economic dislocation provides opportunities for Indian investors, entrepreneurs, or would-be industrialists.

The US economy is not a bottomless well of production, either, and India could well have a comparative advantage in producing Commonwealth material, at least of the less capital intensive sort. Unlike Britain, India is also entirely out of reach of German bombardment.

Politically, if the Japanese failed to penetrate Burma and Bengal given Anglo-American redeployment to the Pacific theater, the wartime famine in India may well have been entirely avoided. Stable trade in its rice staples and war industry demands could be leaving the average Indian's standard of living stable or rising through the entire war period. This, coupled with India's growing autonomy, probably lowers the temperature of political disputes quite a bit, even if underlying differences will come to the fore when the war actually ends.

On another topic: Since the US in OTL symbolically ended the prohibition of Chinese immigration, and the relative absence of unemployment, has there been any Chinese migration to the US since the surrender of Japan? The US might not have the same manpower concerns as the British, but it doesn't have an infinite workforce either.
 
Politically, if the Japanese failed to penetrate Burma and Bengal given Anglo-American redeployment to the Pacific theater, the wartime famine in India may well have been entirely avoided. Stable trade in its rice staples and war industry demands could be leaving the average Indian's standard of living stable or rising through the entire war period. This, coupled with India's growing autonomy, probably lowers the temperature of political disputes quite a bit, even if underlying differences will come to the fore when the war actually ends.

That's a really good point, and one that make India's full participation in the Allies and Commonwealth much easier politically.

After the war, the sum total of the Commonwealth is actually the largest economic force in the world, and is allied to the largest single economy (the USA). So, a US-Commonwealth free-trade zone could effective rule the world for many, many decades to come...
 
Did Taft-Hartley even come up, let alone get passed?

Was there a GI bill passed during the Warm-War period? The US military obviously didn't go through the same draw-down after V-J Day as in OTL, but there may have been at least some draw-down, and there probably is pressure to do right by veterans and avoid a Bonus Army Mk.II.

How has American politics gone in general ITTL, anyway?
 
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