The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Most Responsible Countries for the First World War

[Rex Romanum]

Sorry to bring back ages-old debate, but I have just read through old threads and polls about this particular topic (who was to blame for WWI?), and noticed that it has been nearly universally agreed that Austria-Hungary was the most responsible for starting it (yes, Germany gave the blank cheque to start a war, but Austria-Hungary could just refuse it, and yes, Serbia's Black Hand responsible for the assassination, but Austria-Hungary shouldn't respond to it so dramatically).

However, I also noticed that who was the second, third, and fourth most responsible countries to be less clear. It goes like this:

Countries with most blames for WWI

1st - Austria-Hungary
2nd - Germany/Serbia/Russia???
3rd - see above
4th - see above
5th - France
6th - Britain
7th - Ottoman Empire/Belgium/Italy/Bulgaria/etc???

What do you guys think?

 

[Monter]

Guilty-measure is pretty "wonky" to say at best.

Of those three I did say Russia is the least to blame, it had no choice but save Serbia or face Diplomatic Suicide, it's like the Soviet Union playing with Cuba under the US's nose, that's how Great Powers play.

I find it hard to distinguish the blame between Germany and Serbia, Germany messed up by granting A-H a blanque cheque, which pretty much said: "To arms! By Jingo!" and Serbia really didn't much to prevent a terrorist group with ties to it's own Intelligence service and Army to do whatever they wanted.

For sake of the poll I did say: Germany >= Serbia > Russia.

 

[helher]

The first world war was caused by Nationalism and Imperialism plus the glorification of war by the world Powers.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

Hell France hands down is #1

Honestly I think you can't put "blame" this way. THe war was neither a thing he powers stumbled into nor it was a concious decision. THe situation of the early 20th century made war easy to come, but it also was not inevitable. There is a number of decisions that led to war give or take a few war could have been avoided, but it also could have been sparked by another event.

There was - on both sides - a chain of events , some important were guarantees to support ic case of war (blanco check especially, but also the french reinforced their Russian allies with s similar guaratee)

 

[Dalriadan Archangel 21]

Why is there a need for a league table of blame for a war?

What a wonderful way to denigrate the memory of those who died in the conflict.

 

[Thunderfire]

It should be
1. Serbia - they started the mess
2. Austria - they escalated the crisis
3. Russia - they escalated the crisis too and mobilized their entire army. At this point a big war was inevitable
4. Germany - they invaded a neutral country turning this into a world war

 

[Booster Gold]

They all wanted war because they all were swimming in the macho-nationalist belief that "war make strong!!". So they're all equally responsible f^ckwits.

 

[Halagaz]

It's natural to assign blame to this or that country, and not necessarily wrong, but we shouldn't forget the roles played by individuals. More than once it was a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing. Like the misdirection between Wilhelm II and his cabinet shortly before the start of the war. And some of the various causes of the war were set into motion not years or months but decades before WWI, when the decision-makers of 1914 were largely children or teenagers.

Once Austria-Hungary set it off, all three countries listed above acted - from their own perspective - defensively. Germany didn't want to see a key ally crushed. Russia didn't want to see a key ally crushed. Serbia didn't want to see itself crushed (obviously).
However, Germany egging Austria-Hungary on loses it some points, and its refusal of Grey's proposals for an international conference - which Russia accepted - loses it yet more points.

So if I had to make a list, it would probably go like this:
1.Austria-Hungary
2.Germany
3.Serbia
4.Russia

 

[zoomar]

I chose Serbia, Germany, Russia. But that was before I noticed the "other opinion" option. I think Serbia should be considered the No. 1 instigator of the war but the since the poll options reflects that "winners write the history" that wasn't an option.

My ideal choice would have been (1) Serbia, (2) Austria-Hungary, (3) Germany, (4) Russia

 

[Rex Romanum]

It's natural to assign blame to this or that country, and not necessarily wrong, but we shouldn't forget the roles played by individuals.

Thanks for giving me idea for my future poll thread, "Which individual is most responsible for WWI?".

 

[galveston bay]

Serbia is primary -- its secret police supported a terrorist group and failed to control them

Austria is most definitely second

Russia is third, as it did not have to mobilize (it chose to protect its little Orthodox brother, but it didn't have to)

Germany is fourth, as it did indeed invade Belgium and definitely didn't have to do that, and it could have pressured the Austrians to find a less drastic course when it became clear that Russia was going to mobilize

France and Britain share little responsibility for this Guns of August although France could have made it clear to Russia that it would not support mobilization over Serbia (and thus inevitable war with Germany)

of the powers at war in August 1914, the British share the least responsibility, having done everything it could to make it clear that invading Belgium meant war. The only really innocent power is Belgium, who got invaded merely because they were in the way (and of course little Luxembourg, they too were speed bumps in the road to France, but at least Luxembourg didn't suffer much for it)

 

[Deleted member 83898]

Guilty-measure is pretty "wonky" to say at best.

Of those three I did say Russia is the least to blame, it had no choice but save Serbia or face Diplomatic Suicide, it's like the Soviet Union playing with Cuba under the US's nose, that's how Great Powers play.

I find it hard to distinguish the blame between Germany and Serbia, Germany messed up by granting A-H a blanque cheque, which pretty much said: "To arms! By Jingo!" and Serbia really didn't much to prevent a terrorist group with ties to it's own Intelligence service and Army to do whatever they wanted.

For sake of the poll I did say: Germany >= Serbia > Russia.

Well, if Germany fails to support A-H in a AH-Russia war over Serbia, (which we all know Russia and Serbia will win) then it will also be committing diplomatic suicide by failing to support its main ally.

 

[The Uchronian]

Sorry to bring back ages-old debate, but I have just read through old threads and polls about this particular topic (who was to blame for WWI?), and noticed that it has been nearly universally agreed that Austria-Hungary was the most responsible for starting it (yes, Germany gave the blank cheque to start a war, but Austria-Hungary could just refuse it, and yes, Serbia's Black Hand responsible for the assassination, but Austria-Hungary shouldn't respond to it so dramatically).

However, I also noticed that who was the second, third, and fourth most responsible countries to be less clear. It goes like this:

Countries with most blames for WWI

1st - Austria-Hungary
2nd - Germany/Serbia/Russia???
3rd - see above
4th - see above
5th - France
6th - Britain
7th - Ottoman Empire/Belgium/Italy/Bulgaria/etc???

What do you guys think?

I largely agree with this, but I think the Ottoman Empire should be 5th, not 7th. Also, I blame Germany, Russia and Serbia in that order.

 

[LordKalvert]

It depends on when you want to start-

How about Britain first for creating the whole mess at the Congress of Berlin instead of allowing San Stefano to stand? Would have prevented a lot of the problems

Or maybe its the French, if they had told the British no, Nicholas I could have calmly marched his army into Constantinople and their never would have been a Balkan problem?

Or maybe we should blame the Italians? After all, if there had been no Italo-Ottoman War, there never would have been the Balkan Wars?

Perhaps it should be Austria for not joining Russia in the Crimea?

Or then it could be Prussia- if the Prussians had simply not unified Germany there never would have been a Kaiser to give a blank check?

 

[Halagaz]

Thanks for giving me idea for my future poll thread, "Which individual is most responsible for WWI?".

I think that poll might end up bigger than the first page itself, if it mentions every individual who played some small but important part in the great symphony of fail. But interesting idea all the same.

 

[von Mises]

I'd probably have to skip fourth place and have Russia and Serbia at a fairly distant joint 3rd place. When Austria-Hungary issued their ultimatum, the Serbs accepted nearly all the terms and the Russians tried to get them to do so. Germany let the Austria-Hungarians off their leash, and the Austria-Hungarians forced Russia into a position where they had to take action.

 

[King of the Uzbeks]

The issue here is what we're asking. Are we giving blame for there being a war in the first place, because then its clearly Austria and Serbia's fault mainly, with a little thrown in for Germany and Russia. But if we want to give out blame for the wars expansion then I feel like Germany gets the most blame, followed by Russia. But theres plently of blame to go around.

 

[ECavalier]

Personally it seems a bit silly to assign some sort of ranked blame but if I had to choose I guess it would be Serbia at number two then Germany, then Russia.

It depends on when you want to start-

How about Britain first for creating the whole mess at the Congress of Berlin instead of allowing San Stefano to stand? Would have prevented a lot of the problems

Or maybe its the French, if they had told the British no, Nicholas I could have calmly marched his army into Constantinople and their never would have been a Balkan problem?

Or maybe we should blame the Italians? After all, if there had been no Italo-Ottoman War, there never would have been the Balkan Wars?

Perhaps it should be Austria for not joining Russia in the Crimea?

Or then it could be Prussia- if the Prussians had simply not unified Germany there never would have been a Kaiser to give a blank check?

That's clutching at straws in the extreme man.

 

[LordKalvert]

Personally it seems a bit silly to assign some sort of ranked blame but if I had to choose I guess it would be Serbia at number two then Germany, then Russia.


That's clutching at straws in the extreme man.

The whole point is that assigning "blame" is a bit silly. These are nations with a long history of interactions and you can blame any of them depending on what incident you want to start with

The only country that wanted war is Austria and once they decide on war, then there isn't much anyone else is doing to stop it-

What if Germany doesn't send the blank check and Austria still sends the Ultimatum? Can Germany sit by calmly while Russia and Serbia partition Austria?

Can France really let Russia be crushed and endure virtual slavery at the hands of a victorious Reich?

The British make it clear what they're thinking- a Germany in control over the West would destroy their Empire

There's no morality to this thing

 

[Glenn239]

The issue here is what we're asking. Are we giving blame for there being a war in the first place...

No, that's wasn't the question. Wars happened on regular occasion between 1815 and 1914. Only one of them became a world war. Tiny Serbia and Austria in the Balkans literally by definition cannot cause a world war. Japan and Russia couldn't in 1904. The Boers couldn't in 1899. The Americans couldn't in 1861. The Ottomans couldn't in either 1911 or 1912. All these wars going off without major consequences, and yet Austria manages to win the prize?

Only the biggest Powers can be responsible for world wars.