The American Civil War was only 25 years ago at this point, well within living memory. People knew what large scale continent spanning war meant in terms of death toll. Americans would not start such a war without being willing to pay that price. The only way it would begin with a war-averse American public is if Britain starts it, at which point the American public would cease to be war averse.
Tactics of the US if it invades Canada 1890
- Thread starter tallthinkev
- Start date
Not really. People have short memories. In the 1898 war with Spain Britain ordered partial mobilization in Canada. When asked what would government do if Britain intervened McKinley had no answer. So really, stumbling.into war is also a great possibility. In an accidental war Britain holds the higher ground.
Putting aside the issue of what would cause Britain to intervene against the USA in the Spanish-American War, when in OTL they allowed the US Navy to operate out of Hong Kong there's still the issue that Britain declaring war on the USA in such a situation would be seen as Britain being the aggressor. The Royal Navy would prevail in the Caribbean and Pacific. You might be able to get saber-rattling by the Royal Navy to prevent war, but if there is an attack on the United States from Canada, America will be willing to go through total war to expel Britain from mainland North America. Also anything that relies on Americans forgetting the Civil War, especially by the 1890s, is ASB. An estimated 700,000 to 850,000 Americans died ... that comes out to about 1 in 10 military age men. Many more were wounded. Anyone over thirty is going to remember the war itself, and people younger than thirty are still going to have have seen people with limbs missing from war injuries and know people who grew up without a father. The As far as the American public is concerned, the American Civil War was not some minor skirmish halfway across the globe. It was total war in the American homeland. That's not the sort of thing you forget.
No way in hell does the US lose.
A generation prior we were able to arm and deploy a half million men within a few weeks of Fort Sumpter being fired upon. The US would he able to conscript more men then Canada had total residents... and Britain, while mighty, has a global empire to maintain. Much like with the Germans a generation later, they can't just strip every outpost bare of soldiers to send them to the front... though the Royal Navy will bloody the American nose.
If the US wants Canada, at this point, they will take Canada... only question is how much the Brits make them pay for each mile and what the eventual treaty demands.
A generation prior we were able to arm and deploy a half million men within a few weeks of Fort Sumpter being fired upon. The US would he able to conscript more men then Canada had total residents... and Britain, while mighty, has a global empire to maintain. Much like with the Germans a generation later, they can't just strip every outpost bare of soldiers to send them to the front... though the Royal Navy will bloody the American nose.
If the US wants Canada, at this point, they will take Canada... only question is how much the Brits make them pay for each mile and what the eventual treaty demands.
There were incidents in which British ships going to Spain and its colonies were stopped and checked by the American navy. One of those incidents going awry is a possibility.
Are you really sure about that? Firstly, as a debtor nation, the US had huge imports from the rest of the world pre-1915, and a loss in the pacific and atlantic will create massive economic downturn and inflation. Secondly, money from the downturned economy is needed to arm and equip the army, and around a good fifth of American industries before ww1 were held by British firms and investors, losing which will create even more economic downturn in America. Thirdly, the USA after 1865 till 1917 was a massively demobilized country. It had created a massive economic problem during the civil war that did not allow it to arm as fast without causing massive inflation and economic downturn again, which was why the scope of full mobilization in 1917 was so heated in the Senate and House. It could not afford to arm up rapidly like it did in the Civil War, and going on a slower basis would still increase eyebrows from the entire world as to why the US would be buying so much weapons, and buy it too rapidly then the world would know something is up. Also all plans to invade Canada by the US after 1862 till 1939 involved capturing as much Canadian territory as possible, knowing they would be defeated at sea, and then return Canada in the peace for a stoppage of a blockade(most of it anyway, they intended to annex New Brunswick in such a case it seems) and then pay reparations to Britain.
Really? In 1919 the world swore not to have a war that would have millions dead, a war in which 5% of the entire French population died, 2.8% of British population died, 1.6% of the Russian population died, 4% of the German population died, 8% of the Ottoman population died, 3.5% of the entire Central European population died, and yet after just 19 years, the countries were raring to have a round two. People may remember, governments don't, at least when it comes to putting their policies on the table.
Tell that to the Belgians, French, Italians, Germans, Central Europeans, Russians and Balkans. They experienced total war too. America is nothing special in that regard. Tell that to Britain which was subjected to a submarine blockade in ww1 and was ready for round two in 2 decades. People don't forget. But government's often gloss over them to their own benefit.
Nonetheless, i would agree that the USA would not loose, however nor do i agree that the USA would win. The amount of money and the economy crashed, and the amount of casualties and the very probable return of most of Canada makes it a null point anyways.
WOT?
You don't have to conquer a country to beat it, happened in 1918. The British army, just in the UK, was 4 times the size of the US army as a whole and this does not include the terries. Add in the British troops from around the Empire, plus men from the Empire it's self, Indian Army for a start. The US will be outnumbered at least 12 to 1. Add in the fact that the US is big. The US army can't be everywhere, most will have to be placed in the east and around the Great Lakes, so what will happen on the West Coast? The ships from Pacific, China and Aus Stations and bang, no more the ports of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco and San Diego. There where forts but for the most parts unmanned, ungunned, or in disrepair
Of course not, that is why they did not IOTL. It would have been similarly (though perhaps not equally) self destructive for Britain to start one with the US. America was a great market, its presence helped keep the other American markets open for British business, and they were not a major rival for influence in the rest of the world at this point.
For Britain and the US to go to war in this period there would need to be some background that would likely render at least some of our speculation void.
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Lusitania
Donor
The American forces would need to deal with Canadian special forces. The Canadians knew the Americans could not be trusted and always had desire on the natural beauty of Canada after poisoning and wrecking their country so they had started the “Canadian secret nature defense” in 1870.
by 1890 they had trained thousands of attack Moose who had been injected with special turtle compounds giving it a bullet proof exterior. These moose would destroy American fascist by the droves. that was not all the great Canadian beaver had also been enhanced with elephant formula. Their teeth and tails were used to wipe out whole divisions. They would use their tails to create a sonic boom able to take out who squadron of troops with single thumping of their tail. Let’s not forget the huge swarms of Canadian geese who would dive bomb helpless American forces.
in all the ill fated American invasion of Canada would result in over 300,000 American casualties and leave close to 500,000 American troops languishing in Canadian prisoner of war camps. The Americans were so totally devastated by these looses that they had no defenses when Canadian human and nature forces poured over the border in 1891. Pleas for mercy and for peace were met with Canadian vengeance. Oh the Americans tried to push the Canadians back even to create their own American nature forces but their depleted nature limited their ability as too did their lack of knowledge.
by 1893 when America surrendered to Canadian and British forces America was a broken country. The peace treaty was harsh. Almost all American states and territories along the Canadian border were annexed while the remaining US would suffer for generations from a plague of “American monsters” who escaped from the American labs that had been bombed. The South was ravaged by the 20 foot Alligators and venomous possums. While southwest became almost uninhabitable due to the swarms of rattlesnakes. Worse of course was the American West coast that would be almost abandoned due to the Big foot attacks leaving it completely cut off from the rest of the US and remaining US settlers clinging to few guarded settlements along the coast.
it would be a signal. That no one messes with Canada.
by 1890 they had trained thousands of attack Moose who had been injected with special turtle compounds giving it a bullet proof exterior. These moose would destroy American fascist by the droves. that was not all the great Canadian beaver had also been enhanced with elephant formula. Their teeth and tails were used to wipe out whole divisions. They would use their tails to create a sonic boom able to take out who squadron of troops with single thumping of their tail. Let’s not forget the huge swarms of Canadian geese who would dive bomb helpless American forces.
in all the ill fated American invasion of Canada would result in over 300,000 American casualties and leave close to 500,000 American troops languishing in Canadian prisoner of war camps. The Americans were so totally devastated by these looses that they had no defenses when Canadian human and nature forces poured over the border in 1891. Pleas for mercy and for peace were met with Canadian vengeance. Oh the Americans tried to push the Canadians back even to create their own American nature forces but their depleted nature limited their ability as too did their lack of knowledge.
by 1893 when America surrendered to Canadian and British forces America was a broken country. The peace treaty was harsh. Almost all American states and territories along the Canadian border were annexed while the remaining US would suffer for generations from a plague of “American monsters” who escaped from the American labs that had been bombed. The South was ravaged by the 20 foot Alligators and venomous possums. While southwest became almost uninhabitable due to the swarms of rattlesnakes. Worse of course was the American West coast that would be almost abandoned due to the Big foot attacks leaving it completely cut off from the rest of the US and remaining US settlers clinging to few guarded settlements along the coast.
it would be a signal. That no one messes with Canada.
Perhaps the scariest part, is that the geese require absolutely no modifications.
Lusitania
Donor
Oh they were bred to be five times larger and depending on what they ate could drop gas bombs, acid bombs or worse napalm bombs that stuck to everything and burned on contact.
there were stories of survivors missing limps. Tragic event.
You forget that every American citizen is an expert marksperson, master outdoorsman and fanatically loyal.
At the first sign of invasion, the entire population will melt into the wilderness and wage an undefeatable guerilla war
until/unless every square foot of U.S. soil has been taken and garrisoned.
Even the square feet that are at the bottom of the La Brea tar pits and those hot springs in Yellowstone that are literally acid.
Lusitania
Donor
There was no war crimes at the time. Although se have credited the Canadian -USA war the impetuous for the Geneva convention which outlawed many of the genetic engineering animals that Canada used. FYI Canada is still not a signatory of the Geneva convention.
Well, at least we refused to bind ourselves to such a limiting humanitarian document politely.
Lusitania
Donor
First that is a huge exaggeration since majority of American people lived in cities and gun ownership was not a prolific as it is today.
yes the American people rallied first heroically to the war cry and sent hundred of thousands of troops north. It was estimated that US was able to recruit and as war casualties grew they resorted to conscription. The war wounded was so huge that they both frightened and angered the American people against the fascists government leaders that had brought US to invade its peace loving and wonderful neighbors to the north.
it was then that Canadians and British counter attacked sending the remaining troops back into the US. Scenes of retreating troops and advancing Canadian troops with generals riding 50 foot snow bears or grizzlies frightened the people and border cities such as Detroit and Buffalo emptied as people fled for their lives.
It was at this point that Newfoundland which was still a separate dominion from Canada provided their contribution. The steel teeth Atlantic cod ravaged American coast destroying all ships in American ports but more devastating was the seals who swam up American rivers devastating city harbors and bridges.
it was terrible the pain and suffering the American people had to endure due to the pig headed fascist in government decision to attack our great land.
to this day all Government officials in Washington must still go out in public on July 1 and sing O Canada as part of the humiliation they suffered.
And yet it is an argument that always seems to lie just under the surface in these discussions...
UK has to cross the ocean for logistics but the US at this point lacks the fleet strength to seriously challenge the Royal Navy. On land it becomes a slugging match but the US will likely push from Buffalo, Detroit, Duluth, and likely Seattle into Canada. UK will sink *a lot* of American ships and likely make at least two major landings but will find it very difficult to keep their forces supplied. Alaska and Hawaii may fall, most likely the US and Canada have a two-to-three-year tussle with the UK keeping the Maritime Provinces, Quebec, and Lower Ontario with everything west of the Missinaibi River in US hands. This unfortunately may bolster the smoldering ashes of the filibuster movement and see more American attempts to annex territory in the Caribbean or Mexico.
US rail map in 1890:
US rail map in 1890: