Survival of the Northern Britons

[8Deer]

How can the northern Brythonic speaking kingdoms of Britain (Rheged, Gododdin, etc) survive? I have two PODs in mind here:

1) Urien of Rheged is not assassinated while besieging the Angles at Lindisfarne. This website seems to think pretty highly of him. The interesting part is toward the end. So what would it mean for the Britons if Urien is not murdered.
2) The Gododdin win the battle of Catraeth. I suspect this is too late, but I want to see what you think.

and I suppose

3) The Angles never settle in Bernicia, but that would have too many unwanted butterflies...

So there are some possible ways the British kingdoms of the north could survive. What I'm more interested in however, is what effect this would have on the rest of the British Isles. Would they be able to survive for a long time, or would they simply be conquered/assimilated by the Anglo-Saxons? What effect would it have on Scotland? Wales?

 

[WorldWarZ]

*sigh* if bloody only we'd have won.

Even with a brit victory you would probably see a backlash from angles.
depending on how well the brits capitalize and dont rest on their laurels or resort to infighting who knows.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

The pasting links thing, highlight the word you want the hyperlink to go from, then click the button that's like a world with a chain on.

As to your question, Cadwallon winning the battle of Heavenfield in 632 would have left him ruling a British majority state stretching from the Tees to the Trent, to Anglesey. That would do.

The keys to getting a British Old North are breaking Northumbria, the siege of Lindisfarne ending in the deaths of the defenders, with or without Urien's murder, would work. A dynastic unification in the mid 6th centruy would also be enough.

This POD is doable in 1000 ways, because the Anglo-Saxon conquest was so utterly ASB, they had so many lucky breaks, that I wonder if we really don't understand what was happening at all.

 

[8Deer]

The keys to getting a British Old North are breaking Northumbria, the siege of Lindisfarne ending in the deaths of the defenders, with or without Urien's murder, would work. A dynastic unification in the mid 6th centruy would also be enough.

That reminds me: How did the British kingship work in this period? What were the rules of succession, how centralized were the British kingdoms, etc?

 

[Analytical Engine]

That reminds me: How did the British kingship work in this period? What were the rules of succession, how centralized were the British kingdoms, etc?

Traditionally, a man's land and property was to be divided between his sons, legitimate or illegitimate (as long as they were recognised).

Which is why there were so many Britonic kingdoms in the end...

 

[Neala]

You also need to deal with the Scots who were busy taking over what is now Scotland from the west. The North Britons pretty much got squashed between the 2

 

[robertp6165]

How can the northern Brythonic speaking kingdoms of Britain (Rheged, Gododdin, etc) survive? I have two PODs in mind here:

1) Urien of Rheged is not assassinated while besieging the Angles at Lindisfarne. This website seems to think pretty highly of him. The interesting part is toward the end. So what would it mean for the Britons if Urien is not murdered.

If Urien is not murdered, the seige of Lindisfarne is probably carried out to a victorious conclusion. The Angles of Bernicia are exterminated. The Kingdom of Deira (which was allied to the northern British alliance against Bernicia) survives. Whether it would be as big a threat to the northern British as Bernicia, or later, Northumbria, who knows? A weak Deira might well be absorbed by Mercia, and Mercia might eventually come to dominate the WHOLE island, rather than just the southern 2/3 of it.

2) The Gododdin win the battle of Catraeth. I suspect this is too late, but I want to see what you think.

Well, it depends on how big the victory is. If it's as decisive as the later Battle of Dunnichen was, the Northumbrians may be so demoralized by the affair that they never dare come north again. If it's anything less than that, the Northumbrians make a later attempt and eventually overthrow the Goddodin, as in OTL.

So there are some possible ways the British kingdoms of the north could survive. What I'm more interested in however, is what effect this would have on the rest of the British Isles. Would they be able to survive for a long time, or would they simply be conquered/assimilated by the Anglo-Saxons? What effect would it have on Scotland? Wales?

In order for the northern Britons to survive, you really have to have them unite at some point. A united British kingdom which encompassed Strathclyde, Goddodin, and Rheged might have the staying power to survive for quite some time. If you can reverse the decision at the Battle of Chester, and maintain contact between Wales and the north, so much the better. And if, following a victory by Uriens as described in scenario #1 above, you can restore Bryneich, and get Ebrauc (York) and Elmet into this prospective British Kingdom of the North, then you will have increased it's survivability immeasurably.

Of course, such a northern kingdom will be beset from both north and south...Northumbria (or Deira and Mercia, if Bernicia is eliminated) in the south, and the Scots and Picts to the north. So it would be hard pressed, even if it does unite.

If it does survive, howeer, what is now Scotland may end up as two countries...one Brythonic speaking in the lowlands, and a highland kingdom dominated by the Scots (the matrilineal culture of the Picts pretty much made that inevitable). This would be interesting in and of itself.

Below is a map for a best-case scenario for the Urien survives POD.