Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

[Peabody-Martini]

Chapter One Thousand Five Hundred Four


23rd August 1962

Yellow Sea off Andong, Yalu River

“You are a Coxswain, go do your job and enjoy your first command.” That was how Captain Hase had termed it.

All Louis could think about was the danger involved when he had been put in charge of not one, but three, of the Borkum Class Landing Craft. All of which were crewed by men far older than he was. They had told him to mind Landungsboot-932, the Landing Craft that Louis had been assigned to and to keep out of their way.

Compared to the 10-meter launch that Louis was used to, LB-932 was a great wallowing tub that was excruciatingly slow. The LC was an improved version of the LCs that had resulted when the Kaiserliche Marine had reverse engineered the Japanese Daihatsu Class of the Second World War. Better, more protected, accommodation for the crew had been seen as a must when the Navy had started operating them on the North Sea and the two 20mm Dual-purpose cannons and MG42/48 machine guns as armament were far and away superior to what they had replaced. In an ironic twist, LB-932 had been manufactured by Mitsubishi for use by the Marine Infantry in the Far East and the Pacific. Today, that came in the form of the Platoon of Marine Infantry and all of their gear that were aboard and they were not happy to be out in the rough seas in the LC and were keeping as low as they could manage as water slopped in. The water became calmer once they were on the river, but that didn’t mean a whole lot as the splashes from artillery started landing among the LCs.

Aircraft from the SMS Voss and SMS Wolff were orbiting overhead. They were keeping their distance because over the prior minutes the battle line of the KM had turned its guns on the shore and 42cm and 15cm shells were crashing into the port city a few kilometers up the Yalu River that was the destination of the Landing Craft.

That didn’t seem to be doing a whole lot about the river defenses. They opened up as soon as the LCs were within range. Louis could hear the sound of shrapnel hitting the armored cockpit that he was sitting in and the sound of the cannons and machine guns opening up. There wasn’t a whole lot of what passed for a beach here, mostly mudflats on either side of the river. That was why these landings were going to be unique.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Sitting in an open-topped Landing Craft with shells exploding around it and their own side shooting over their heads was not Karl’s idea of fun. Especially because the water that was being kicked up smelled like dead fish and shit, in all likelihood it was because that was exactly what it was. Every city and village up the Yalu dumping their waste into the river and all of it passed through here.

After a couple weeks of rest and refit, the 3rd MID had been told that they were going to go do what they did best. Then when they had reached the embarkation point in Incheon, they had found that the 1st and 2nd Marine Infantry Divisions were there along with the Heer’s 13th Army Corps that had been shipped up from Taiwan. In recognition of his command of the 3rd MID, Uncle Tilo had been awarded a gold wreath device for his PLM and Promoted again so that he could take command of this circus. The plan was simple enough. Capture Andong and the bridge that crossed it there intact if they could. The three Marine Divisions were to kick the door open and 13th was to follow to exploit the opening. The Chinese had expended considerable resources defending the bridge and the General in charge of the 2nd Army Corps intended to use it to advance into Manchuria as repayment for their efforts.

Before, they had left Inchon, Reier had advised Karl to stick with his best mates. Whoever they were. That came in the form of Niko, but still this was the first time he had been going into a situation like this without Erik. He could imagine how his cousin would have handled this, making smartass comments and making everyone laugh except those who wanted to kick the shit out of him.

The gunfire from the Battleships shifted and there was a large splash as a shell fell short and landed a couple hundred meters from the LC, which doused everyone inside with water. In the long minute that followed the sound of the shells landing and the air ahead was filled with a wild assortment of brightly colored pyrotechnic smoke. A concrete bank loomed out of the smoke and the LC turned as it impacted against it. When Karl had first heard this plan, he had not liked the sounds of it because it was not exactly something that could be rehearsed and the term “fish in a barrel” had been thrown around a lot. The other men started climbing up the bank and predictably the first one to reach the top was immediately hit and fell back into the LC. As Karl reached the top, he kept expecting a bullet to come flying out of the smoke and hit him even as he reached the walls of a ruined building a dozen or so meters from the bank.

Looking around, he realized that he had no clue as to where in Andong he was. Niko had followed him, assuming that Karl knew where he was going. In the following minutes, the others made their way over the bank and after a spell Karl heard the sound of the LC pulling away from the bank.

“Where are the Chinese?” Niko asked. It was something that had not occurred to Karl yet. There was simply no way that they would leave a place like this undefended.

“Do you think that you’re going to like the answer to that question?” Karl asked in reply which shut Niko up. The mazelike streets of the Chinese city made that answer clear enough. They were going to have to dig them out and that was going to make for a very long, rotten day.

 

[jammci]

Well rip the Chinese, that looks like inchon x10

 

[weasel_airlift]

“Do you think that you’re going to like the answer to that question?” Karl asked in reply which shut Niko up. The mazelike streets of the Chinese city made that answer clear enough. They were going to have to dig them out and that was going to make for a very long, rotten day.

Ugh, urban combat.

 

[jlckansas]

Ugh, urban combat.

In this case I think if they are far enough away call in the gun line, 16" and below, or use close air support. Other wise get some of the marine version of the stug's up on the line and just blow open windows.

 

[FBKampfer]

Well rip the Chinese, that looks like inchon x10

Fights far from over. Goshawks are probably a pretty good match for the carrier fighters, and US AShM's can even damage battleships. One hit on a supply ship (god forbid one carrying munitions) and its probably mission killed at the absolute minimum, if not sunk outright.


The Koreans probably don't have a whole lot of offensive punch vs the Chinese, lacking the Germans' heavy equipment, which means the Chinese can basically ignore them while they deal with the Germans.

And unless the Germans can break out into relatively open country where they can exercise maneuver warfare, opening a second front invariably benefits the larger force.

Its the correct move, but still a risky one. They've given themselves an opportunity, but unless they're able to exploit it, they've also handed the Chinese an opportunity for force concentration and defeat in detail wrapped in a bow and served up on a silver platter.

 

[ferdi254]

The German figure of speech would be "Schießbudenfigur". You know, those targets at a fair where you can have some shoots to win a rose or a plush teddy...

 

[matzeskatze]

Fights far from over. Goshawks are probably a pretty good match for the carrier fighters, and US AShM's can even damage battleships. One hit on a supply ship (god forbid one carrying munitions) and its probably mission killed at the absolute minimum, if not sunk outright.

True, but I generally think that the USA weapons lack in one very important aspect, they have very little to no imput from a real war. Say what you will about it, but Imo real experience in using a weapon in a fight is very important and the USA have not fought a real war to the knife for a long time.

The Koreans probably don't have a whole lot of offensive punch vs the Chinese, lacking the Germans' heavy equipment, which means the Chinese can basically ignore them while they deal with the Germans.
And unless the Germans can break out into relatively open country where they can exercise maneuver warfare, opening a second front invariably benefits the larger force.
Its the correct move, but still a risky one. They've given themselves an opportunity, but unless they're able to exploit it, they've also handed the Chinese an opportunity for force concentration and defeat in detail wrapped in a bow and served up on a silver platter.

If the Germans and Koreans have anything like air dominance or more, I think that the Chinese have a big problm at hand. Namely that the Germans are trying to cut off the advanced elements of their forces in Korea and create a cauldron to annihilate them. So if they hold the last bridge and can prevent the Chinese from errecting another one, than the risky move is worth more then possibility to demange the Germans here.
Also I think you underestimate the Koreans, sure they are not a first class power, but if they have learned something from the Germans, they could have a serious bite.
Also if they work together the "lack" of heavy equipement may not be that bad.

 

[ejpsan]

The Korean Army should have a number of previous generation German tanks and other armour vehicles and maybe there has been some top line units that have been equipped and trained with some of the latest weapons that the Germans have to offer.
The main goal of the offensive seems to be to race to the Yalu River to prevent reinforcements and supplies to the Chinese Army that are in Korea and trap them.
General Pan seems to be not with the Army in Korea which may be part of his plan to deflect blame and shift it to Chiang Kai-shek and use it to take over China.
The wildcard in this situation is that apparently the Germans are operating on the Chinese side of the Yalu and the could be considered to be expanding the scope of the war which they really do not want to do.
Meanwhile as Freddy is getting reports of his younger siblings exploits, he may be eating himself in misplaced shame in that he is "not doing his part" in this conflict, but it is out of his hands unless he can finagle a morale boosting visit and try to get himself attached to a Pioneer unit before anyone can stop him.

 

[FBKampfer]

True, but I generally think that the USA weapons lack in one very important aspect, they have very little to no imput from a real war. Say what you will about it, but Imo real experience in using a weapon in a fight is very important and the USA have not fought a real war to the knife for a long time.

No, but the Chinese have, at least as recently as the Koreans, if not the Germans. They're the ones using it.

And so far the Goshawk has been depicted as nothing less than a solid fighter.

And an AShM is pretty simple. Does guidance work? Does the warhead work? Can you launch it? Sweet, you're good to go. More to the point, they've already kept destroyers and cruisers at bay and damaged a battleship.


At this point, the US gear is battle proven.

Hell, a Burford shrugged off a hit from a 128mm before it ate one in the turret ring (which would quite possibly destroy a modern M1 Abrams).

If Korean Panther II's meet Burfords, there's gonna be a lot of dead Korean tanks.

If the Germans and Koreans have anything like air dominance or more, I think that the Chinese have a big problm at hand. Namely that the Germans are trying to cut off the advanced elements of their forces in Korea and create a cauldron to annihilate them. So if they hold the last bridge and can prevent the Chinese from errecting another one, than the risky move is worth more then possibility to demange the Germans here.
Also I think you underestimate the Koreans, sure they are not a first class power, but if they have learned something from the Germans, they could have a serious bite.
Also if they work together the "lack" of heavy equipement may not be that bad.

In small front high density engagements, you need either extraordinary firepower or overwhelming manpower. That is, fortunately, exactly what Korea is made for, and plays into every strength the Chinese have.

The Germans are (again, correctly) trying to open a second front so they can use maneuver warfare.

The problem is that the Chinese still have entirely uncommitted strategic reserves. Including the absolute best divisions China has.

Granted Chiang is keeping them to protect the capital. But then an end run at the capital is exactly the kind of stupid plan he'd be worried about, and he may deploy them against the Germans anyway.


Point being, there's a lot of war left, and stupid luck and happenstance has a strange way of impacting the outcome of campaigns.

 

[matzeskatze]

No, but the Chinese have, at least as recently as the Koreans, if not the Germans. They're the ones using it.

And how did the USA designers gain from that? They certainly can design a weapon given the specs, but will the given ones resemble anything from the real world? Also iterative testing of equipement may lack in this case.

And so far the Goshawk has been depicted as nothing less than a solid fighter.

Sure and will the USA gain the hard won knowlage of the Chinese pilots in where it is exelent / good / lacking? Or will the Chinese funnel this into their own developement? As they are already building their own homegrown variants.

And an AShM is pretty simple. Does guidance work? Does the warhead work? Can you launch it? Sweet, you're good to go. More to the point, they've already kept destroyers and cruisers at bay and damaged a battleship.

And how good will the hardware profe to be in the changing enviroment? Will the USA gain data on how th Germans react to it or how the German counters work?

Hell, a Burford shrugged off a hit from a 128mm before it ate one in the turret ring (which would quite possibly destroy a modern M1 Abrams). If Korean Panther II's meet Burfords, there's gonna be a lot of dead Korean tanks.

True, the mentioned tank got knocked on the glacies. But we do not know the demage it did, only that a second hit, very shortly after, into a vulnerable spot blew it up. But maybe the ambush was not optimal in geometry as hitting the turret ring, for me, indicates that the fire was from above, so the blacies could be hit in a way it was not designed to face and the shot tried to force its way through more then normal. Maybe... we do not know.
On the other hand, how sophisticated are the Bufords compared to German Panzers? Many ergonomic and small things could influence the performance and some of the learning on that would need actual usage of the tanks. So how much of that did the USA have and how much would flow into the design of the tank?

In small front high density engagements, you need either extraordinary firepower or overwhelming manpower. That is, fortunately, exactly what Korea is made for, and plays into every strength the Chinese have.
The Germans are (again, correctly) trying to open a second front so they can use maneuver warfare.
The problem is that the Chinese still have entirely uncommitted strategic reserves. Including the absolute best divisions China has.
Granted Chiang is keeping them to protect the capital. But then an end run at the capital is exactly the kind of stupid plan he'd be worried about, and he may deploy them against the Germans anyway.

But right now the Germans operate under the umbrella of the Big Guns, and I assume that the Chinese anti ship capability in the region is surpressed, so the Germans have the firepower to hold and flatten the Chinese. As for manpower, how long can Chinea keep it up without the incentive of a convincing political system backing them? Right now I see it as the Chinese pushing Korea to distract from homegrown problems. But that Imo only works if the victories keep coming, otherwise the frustration in the population could grow... for an example see Russia in WWI.
Also I read it as the Germans tryinig to entrap the Chinese forces in Korea and not opening a second front. So the goals are clear and I think the Germans and Koreans have the equipement and manpower to contest the area sufficently to bring the hurt to the Chinese.
Regarding to the "best divisions" how good are they realy and would they be needed to keep the country stable and in hand? Because it sounds to me, that the problems of China may be growing bejond the ability of local troops.

Point being, there's a lot of war left, and stupid luck and happenstance has a strange way of impacting the outcome of campaigns.

That is right, on the other hand, cumulative experience on the Korean and German side may well prevent happenstance from happening...

Another point I would like to make, how good are the technical services of the Chinese at this point? If they relay on USA "mercenaries" to support the high tech weapons, then that could bite them later on when losses rise and experience is lost and not replaced as they are unable to pay enough to entice people into the grinder. More so as the Germans and Koreans will likely concentrate on the high threat targets the Americans help keep working.

 

[ejpsan]

The problem is that the Chinese still have entirely uncommitted strategic reserves. Including the absolute best divisions China has.

The number of units that China can use is actually limited, they have to keep an eye out for Russia as China has longstanding border dispute with them and there may be some Russian interference in Manchuria.
IOTL India and China fought in a border war in 1962, and there is always Tibet to be concerned about.
China and Vietnam also has border dispute and China has to keep units there to deter Vietnam from taking advantage of the situation.
The best divisions that China has are really there to protect Chiang Kai-shek from those who want to overthrow him.

 

[Peabody-Martini]

Chapter One Thousand Five Hundred Five


26th August 1962

Sinuiju, Korea

Staring at the ceiling while laying on her cot, Kiki was thinking about the events both large and small that had played out over the prior two days.

Trying to take the bridge had turned out to be a bit of a mistake. That much was clear when the entire thing had blown up. After how the Koreans had botched the job months earlier, the Chinese had been taking no chances. When it looked like capture by either the Marines or the Paratroopers was inevitable, they had blown the thing into orbit. Though Kiki had been several kilometers away she had seen it clearly enough from near the landing zone in when bits of the bridge had been landing all around her. Bits that had crushed entire buildings when they landed. The FSR teams had gone in with the second wave into Sinuiju and had just arrived then that had happened. The Pioneers had built a new temporary bridge that the 13th Army had used to cross the river. They were also already preparing to build a replacement for the original bridge once the 2nd Army reached Sinuiju and the rail link with the rest of Korea could be restored.

While the 1st and 3rd Fallschirmjäger Divisions had been working on expanding the perimeter the FSR had been tasked with rescuing civilians trapped in the rubble. There were a small number of Chinese holdouts present so for the first time in this conflict, the FSR had needed to play the role of combat troops as well. Into this was what had become a constant source of aggravation for her, Zella.

Kiki loved her like a sister but with Zella’s connections, once she had decided to stay then not only was Kiki was unable to get rid of her but had her embedded with the FSR teams that Kiki was in charge of. Not even Kiki afford to anger General Ernst von Hanover, he had come out of retirement as the Prince of Hanover and presiding over the expansive family estate in Lower Saxony to lead this campaign. He played a large role in introducing Zella’s parents and he had a bit of affection for Zella for that reason. His orders to Kiki was that she had to cooperate with Zella, despite her many foibles. For starters, Zella had found out about Kiki swimming in the creek outside the base in Anju au naturel. Naturally she didn’t understand and had compared the situation here with the one back home. It was just one more thing added to the lengthy list of things that she didn’t understand because she hadn’t been in Korea for months trying to survive the climate as well the war itself. Kiki didn’t even want to think about some of the opinions Zella held about the food and sleeping accommodations before they had left Anju. Zella being Zella, she certainly hadn’t been shy about sharing those opinions.

The thing that bothered Kiki the most though was that Zella should have been on her way home by now. One word from her and she would be on the next plane home, so her presence was entirely optional, and Kiki was actually angry and jealous of her over the matter. She could go back to her art, the music scene, the Rock & Rollers and University with hardly a ripple. That much was made clear when Kiki had arranged for Zella to get her story back to Berlin and had seen the tersely worded response that had come back from her mother. It was obvious to Kiki that Zella had really stepped over the line with her latest actions.

Kiki had been about to confront Zella over this when she had told her that she was frightened that she might not have anything to return to after this. That her running away had been at the end of a long string of events where Zella had made what she now knew were stupid mistakes. At some point early this year things had started to go wrong. Kiki had been absolutely shocked when Zella said that she had found herself unexpectedly pregnant after one of her Professors had taken advantage of her at a low moment. She had tried going to her mother for help but had instead told her mother about everything beside that and it had caused a big row between them. Then came the miscarriage and the Professor getting his testicles pounded flat by his angry wife. Kiki tried not to laugh at that last part but couldn’t help herself, it was his just deserts. Zella didn’t think it was funny though because she had watched the wife get carted off to prison. That was when Kiki realized that Zella blamed herself for all of it and that running off to a warzone as a would-be Journalist hadn’t been about personal ambition. Zella was risking her neck so that she could talk with the one person on Earth who might understand her. It was a shocking admission for her to have made and Kiki wasn’t sure what to make of it.

“Word just arrived that helicopters are inbound from the twins” Mitzi said, snapping Kiki out of her thoughts. “Anyone who can be moved, needs to be prepared to be evacuated.”

That was a reminder that the war was progressing merrily along, Kiki thought to herself as she swung her feet to the floor. Leaving the room where she mostly didn’t sleep, she saw that Zella was sitting on a crate with the sketchbook that she always had with her. Kiki remembered that that was how she had always processed things. She didn’t want to know what exactly was making it into those sketches, Kiki assumed that it was the same sorts of things that she saw every time she closed her eyes and tried to sleep.

 

[Rinasoir]

Sounds like PTSD is starting to creep into Kiki, can only see so much death and destruction before it starts to mess with the mind.

She'll need a damn good therapist after this.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

She'll need a damn good therapist after this.

Sometimes I wonder how much Berg and Holz can actually take.....

 

[Rinasoir]

Sometimes I wonder how much Berg and Holz can actually take.....

Not this.

This is the sort of case that calls for a low publicity therapist, not one of the two most famous ones in Germany.

 

[EWilanO]

Especially as both Dr. Berg and Dr. Holz wouldn't be able to be objective, I would highly suggest that they let a trusted colleague take over the treatment. Both of them would be too emotionally involved.

 

[ejpsan]

Only a third of combat veterans get PTSD and the key in basically preventing it is to be open and honest in the emotional aftermath and acknowledge the experience that you went through.

 

[embo]

Only a third of combat veterans get PTSD and the key in basically preventing it is to be open and honest in the emotional aftermath and acknowledge the experience that you went through.

Which doesnt really sound like Kiki at all...

 

[ejpsan]

Fortunately Kiki has someone who has been through all of this before in her life and will steer Kiki in to getting any help that she may needs because this person is a very fierce and protective woman who thinks of Kiki as one of her own.

 

[jerard]

And how did the USA designers gain from that? They certainly can design a weapon given the specs, but will the given ones resemble anything from the real world? Also iterative testing of equipement may lack in this case.


Sure and will the USA gain the hard won knowlage of the Chinese pilots in where it is exelent / good / lacking? Or will the Chinese funnel this into their own developement? As they are already building their own homegrown variants.

That's one reason why the Special Forces, and probably others, are there as "technical advisors".

True, the mentioned tank got knocked on the glacies. But we do not know the demage it did, only that a second hit, very shortly after, into a vulnerable spot blew it up. But maybe the ambush was not optimal in geometry as hitting the turret ring, for me, indicates that the fire was from above, so the blacies could be hit in a way it was not designed to face and the shot tried to force its way through more then normal. Maybe... we do not know.
On the other hand, how sophisticated are the Bufords compared to German Panzers? Many ergonomic and small things could influence the performance and some of the learning on that would need actual usage of the tanks. So how much of that did the USA have and how much would flow into the design of the tank?

Seems likely that the Buford was coming down a hill which exposed the top even more to direct fire from a Scorpion on another hill. All of this means that the glacis would have been hit at a much flatter trajectory then normal and therefore the 128 would have had a much easier time penetrating. Perhaps due to the much thinner resistance it over-penetrated.