Stronger Italy in WW2

WI Italians had established a greater military capability prior to the outbreak of WW2 (e.g. active embedding of German command structures & units, joint training & military maneuvers, 'exchange programs' with SS to foster greater cooperation and modeling of fascist ideals etc). How would this impact upon their war effort?

Apologies in advance if this is total ASB! :eek:
 

Cook

Banned
The SS bit is ASB since the Waffen SS prior to the start of the war were nothing more than Hitler’s Praetorian Guard.

A Wehrmacht Officer exchange is more what you are looking for.
 
This isn't ASB, there's a finished TL about a better Italian military floating around. Look in Timelines and Scenarios for "A Fitter Italian Military" or something like that. I believe it's by Croesus.
 
Then Italy could probably handle the Balkans on its own. Thus, Germany wouldn't have to cancel plans and divert troops from the eastern front and the Soviets will have a harder fight on their hands.
 

Eurofed

Banned
WI Italians had established a greater military capability prior to the outbreak of WW2 (e.g. active embedding of German command structures & units, joint training & military maneuvers, 'exchange programs' with SS to foster greater cooperation and modeling of fascist ideals etc). How would this impact upon their war effort?

There is the excellent "Manstein in Africa" TL by Blairwitch749 that masterfully explores the scenario, although his PoD is in late 1940, not before the war.

In several ways a WWII Italian military that runs close to German effectiveness levels since 1940-41 is a decisive game winner for the Axis in the conventional field. The Axis gains air-naval supremacy in the Mediterranean, and conquers Malta, North Africa, and East Africa in 1940-41, the Middle East in 1941-42. Spain, Turkey, and Vichy France are wooed to join the Axis by its success and UK weakness. Hitler and Mussolini persuade Japan with Middle Eastern oil to leave America and South East Asia alone and attack Soviet Russia. The Regia Marina and the Marine Nationale in the Atlantic help the KriegsMarine achieve naval supremacy and screw Britain with naval blockade.

Massive and efficient Italian contribution to Barbarossa, as well as Turkish and Japanese fronts, Spanish and Vichy French sizable expeditionary corps, little to none Land-Lease reaching Russia by loss of Iranian and Far Easytern access points, the Axis having plenty of oil, and quite likely Hitler expanding efficient Axis integration to the other members by seeing his main ally so effective surely screw Soviet Russia beyond recovery.

America may or may not ever be able to join the war without a Japanese rampage in the Pacific, and even admitting FDR is somehow able to concoct a plausible casus belli out of Axis naval warfare in the Atlantic (assuming that the American public falls for the same "Lusitania" trick twice in a generation, which they were rather wary of in the 1930s), in all likelihood this is not coming earlier than mid-late 1942 at the very best, and America would surely come too little too late to save Soviet Russia, which shall be knocked down to Nationalist China levels, and quite possibly too little too late to prevent a collapse of Britain as well.

If America joins at all, Japan is always screwed. Although the USA may or may not able to join the war in time before Britain is forced to throw the towel, even if they do, ITTL Russia is always screwed and at the best America could do little more than crushing Japan, keeping the supply lifelines to Britain open, and fortify the British Isles, India, and Siberia against Axis invasion. A successful Allied invasion of North Africa or Europe would be ASB with conventional resources.

Nukes may or may not still be a game winner. Successfully infiltrating the effective air defense of a victorious Axis with a lone nuke bomber or an handful of them would be much, much more difficult than with gutted mid-1945 Japan. In all likelihood America would need hundreds of nuke bombers to saturate Axis air defense, which they won't get till 1948-49. In the meanwhile, a victorious Axis can build a sizable WMD deterrent with plenty of nerve gas and dirty bomb missiles since 1944-45 and hold British cities hostage as a MAD deterrent against American nukes. America won't get a nominal intercontinental bombing capacity till 1948 and in effective terms till the early 1950s.

Pretty much the only real game winner for the Allies ITTL is America using tactical nukes to smash Axis defenses and break through a major landing in Europe, and even so, there is still the issue of Axis WMD retaliation on Britain, so they would have to run the whole landing effort from across the Atlantic. Probably feasible, but no little effort. Of course, a really ruthless and desperate America could likely do to Britain what Germany did to Italy and Hungary in 1943-44, militarly occupy it in order to stop a UK surrender when Axis WMD missiles start raining down, but this has its own relevant political problems with the home front and the morale of the troops.

It is also quite possible that America may use Siberia and/or India a staging ground for its troops, however the magnitude of logistical problems and the difficulty of a conventional offensive vs. a victorious Axis Europe makes successful American invasion of western Eurasia from a Siberian or Indian staging ground quite unlikely, although they can certainly stave off an Axis invasion of India.

In short, this PoD means that unless America uses its assets in just the optimal way, the European Axis in all likelihood wins.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
Then Italy could probably handle the Balkans on its own. Thus, Germany wouldn't have to cancel plans and divert troops from the eastern front and the Soviets will have a harder fight on their hands.

This is but the most trivial effect of the PoD. The really important game-changing effects of the PoD are elsewhere. An efficient WWII Italy wins the day for the Axis in the Mediterranean, North Africa, and the Middle East, which screws Britain, and helps giving Soviet Russia the knockout blow in many direct and indirect ways. Forget the Balkans, they never were important for the outcome of Barbarossa in any meaningful way.
 
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WI Italians had established a greater military capability prior to the outbreak of WW2 (e.g. active embedding of German command structures & units, joint training & military maneuvers, 'exchange programs' with SS to foster greater cooperation and modeling of fascist ideals etc). How would this impact upon their war effort?

Apologies in advance if this is total ASB! :eek:

It would have had a great effect, however the POD is ASB.

Fascism is a deeply nationalist ideology. " Our nation is the greatest because our founding virtues are superior, etc, etc. Once we return to our national values and purify ourselves of non italian influences we shall return to the golden age of our mythic forefathers." If you look at the literature from Germany, Spain, Italy, Romania, Hungary, any of the fascist countries, it is all the same. There is very little internationalism in Fascism, it is all self centered nationalism, and the founding golden age myth. The Axis sucked at cooperation because of it.

Fascist Italy had to be kicked in the teeth by the Brits and Greeks hard, three times, Ethiopia, Greece and North Africa, before they would take German help, and even then they were resistant. To do otherwise was to discredit their ideology and admit they were not the superior Italian nation, and the equal or superior of the Germans in every way.

An Italy that accepts that kind of help from the Germans before staring disaster in the face is not Fascist Italy, and wouldn't have joined the war in the first place.

The whole shiny happy axis bond of brothers thing is total dreck. If it wasn't they wouldn't have all cut deals at the first opportunity and changed sides.
 
Fascism is a deeply nationalist ideology. " Our nation is the greatest because our founding virtues are superior, etc, etc. Once we return to our national values and purify ourselves of non italian influences we shall return to the golden age of our mythic forefathers." If you look at the literature from Germany, Spain, Italy, Romania, Hungary, any of the fascist countries, it is all the same. There is very little internationalism in Fascism, it is all self centered nationalism, and the founding golden age myth. The Axis sucked at cooperation because of it.


This, this, this, this, THIS.

Too many people think the real world is nothing more than a game of Civilization where alliances can be made willy-nilly, entire nations suborned at a mouse click, and technologies invented once you gather enough lit bulbs.

Italy is not going to hand over the bulk of it's military to German control, German training, or otherwise ape German practices unless it has no other choice and even then there will be plenty of foot dragging. The Italians will not drop their own aircraft designs for Germans ones, will not drop their own tank designs for German ones, and will not drop their own military ideas fro German ones until, again, they have no other choice and probably not even then.

Getting back to the OP's question, Italy was pretty much a strong as it could have been in WW2. Perhaps more than any other combatant and definitely more than any of the victors, Italy was greatly damaged by WW1 in a number of important ways. Her casualties were massive in proportion to her population, her economy wrecked by the war effort, her gains scanty in relation to the cost, and her national "psyche" deeply scarred by the entire affair.

The effect to her national "psyche" was most telling. The deep seated apathy and distrust WW1 created among the Italian population for any government not only allowed the Fascists to come to power, it also meant that the Fascists weren't then able to either fully unite or motivate the nation they now controlled.

There many deep functional problems with Italy in this period that a few cosmestic changes aren't going to even begin to address. Case in point, after the Air Force and Navy creamed off the top of each conscription class, the Italian Army was left with a majority of conscripts who were illiterate. I don't care how many panzers, how many exchange programs, and many field officers and NCOs Germany gives them, you cannot run a technology dependent blitzkrieg for long with illiterate soldiers.


Bill
 
Convince Mussolini to not sell a good portion of what tanks, artillery and planes Italy did have for hard currency?

Have him NOT pour even more such hardware into Spain from which it never returned?

Have him not insist on 60 paper divisions with the actual manpower of less than 40, and even worse in equipment, leaving Italian 'divisions' little more capable than British brigades in the best of times?

Try to do something about reserve units where some battalion commanders were middle-aged men who hadn't worn a uniform since they led a platoon in 1918?
 

Cook

Banned
What Bill missed mentioning there is that Italy initially was the Senior partner; Fascist Italy having been Hitler’s inspiration. Italy was Fascist from 1922, Germany ten years later.

Germany provided 19,000 troops to fight in the Spanish Civil War, never more than 12,000 at any one time while Italy provided 50,000 at peak and a total of 75,000 overall.

Mussolini really didn’t like subordinate roles.
 
Too many people think the real world is nothing more than a game of Civilization where alliances can be made willy-nilly, entire nations suborned at a mouse click, and technologies invented once you gather enough lit bulbs.

Italy is not going to hand over the bulk of it's military to German control, German training, or otherwise ape German practices unless it has no other choice and even then there will be plenty of foot dragging. The Italians will not drop their own aircraft designs for Germans ones, will not drop their own tank designs for German ones, and will not drop their own military ideas fro German ones until, again, they have no other choice and probably not even then.

Exactly, notwithstanding what many members here thinks, germans are not the panacea for every problem and you cannot skip policy for a "wargame" approach.

Now, what italy could have realistically done? Aside what has been already written, I would add the convintion of having to fight a long war against Great Britain. The very idea of entering a war already won, damned Italy more than anything else.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Getting back to the OP's question, Italy was pretty much a strong as it could have been in WW2.

Sure, let's make yet another round at taking WWII racist stereotypes grounded in OTL butterflies and created by Anglo self-glorifying propaganda as immutable biological law. The French are pompous coward cheese-eating surrender monkeys, the Italians pizza-eating funny clownish losers with no military attitude whatsoever, the Japanese are rice-munching treacherous copycat berserkers, the Germans are strudel-eating clever ants with an innate aptitude for evil inherited by their Hun ancestors, Ivan is dumbly brave but doing everything by irresistible brute force, but who cares, there's an endless supply of them back in the steppes, the Anglos are heroic angels of freedom who never give up, never lose, never do wrong, always have the best stuff, and do everything for the other peoples' sake. Did I forget anyone ?

Perhaps more than any other combatant and definitely more than any of the victors, Italy was greatly damaged by WW1 in a number of important ways. Her casualties were massive in proportion to her population, her economy wrecked by the war effort, her gains scanty in relation to the cost, and her national "psyche" deeply scarred by the entire affair.

Too bad that the above sorry description fit post-WWI Britain, France, Germany too like a glove.

The effect to her national "psyche" was most telling. The deep seated apathy and distrust WW1 created among the Italian population for any government

Apathy ? Distrust ? ever heard of the "Lost Generation" ? A social phenomenon first identified in America no less, certainly the WWI belligerant that was scared the least by the Great War.

There many deep functional problems with Italy in this period that a few cosmestic changes aren't going to even begin to address.

Of course not. Gods forbid that a well-crafted PoD may ever mess with one's cherished stereotypes about racial military aptitudes.

Case in point, after the Air Force and Navy creamed off the top of each conscription class, the Italian Army was left with a majority of conscripts who were illiterate. I don't care how many panzers, how many exchange programs, and many field officers and NCOs Germany gives them, you cannot run a technology dependent blitzkrieg for long with illiterate soldiers.

When one goes around to handpick half-glanced statistics to prop up one's prejudices, let's try to hit the right century or decade at least. Italian illiteracy rate was 21% in the 1931 census and estimated to about 14% (no census was done because of the war) in 1941. Still a quite serious social problem, but by no means possible the majority of able-bodied young men, which in all likelihood were going to have rather better literacy rates than the general population. And there is no way that any military is ever going to let the Air Force and the Navy to pick a "cream" of 65-70% of the conscription class in order to make a tiny minority of 14% the majority. The fact you quote statistics that at best were wrong by at least an abundant generation and may perhaps fit WWI tells how seriously one should deem your whole argument.
 
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Italy was greatly damaged by WW1 in a number of important ways. Her casualties were massive in proportion to her population, her economy wrecked by the war effort, her gains scanty in relation to the cost, and her national "psyche" deeply scarred by the entire affair.

The effect to her national "psyche" was most telling. The deep seated apathy and distrust WW1 created among the Italian population for any government not only allowed the Fascists to come to power, it also meant that the Fascists weren't then able to either fully unite or motivate the nation they now controlled.

There many deep functional problems with Italy in this period that a few cosmestic changes aren't going to even begin to address. Case in point, after the Air Force and Navy creamed off the top of each conscription class, the Italian Army was left with a majority of conscripts who were illiterate. I don't care how many panzers, how many exchange programs, and many field officers and NCOs Germany gives them, you cannot run a technology dependent blitzkrieg for long with illiterate soldiers.


Bill
Bill, while some of your points are good, I'm afraid you have quite a distorted view of great war's effect on italian society.
The Effect was negligible in terms of economy and military: actually the main problem were not the losses of the war, but the fact that the equipment (rifles, artillery, etc) was still the same (i.e. had not been upgraded), except maybe for some aircraft models.
This fact was somewhat made worse by the fact that in 1919 a good share of it has been dismantled/sold.
The equipment used in/given to Spain was such
A good military politics would have used this fact to renew the equipment with a more modern one, but ... :D
Regarding psicological effect, apathy and distrust were not effects of the Great war, but were well ingrained mentalities before that: on the contrary, the Great War began an pro-do violent mentality (so-called Activism philosophy) which was crucial for the rise of fascism.
Also regarding the analphabetism question, you are confusing the great war with the second one. One of the few merits of fascism was to organize a capillar net of instruction institutes and extend basic knowledge to all classes. This was a fundamental point for the regime, since only that way, the new generation could be properly brainwashed, but it also has the positive effect on extending literacy to lower classes
 

Cook

Banned
Jeez Eurofed, Calm down!

The Italians in world War Two WERE poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly supplied and poorly lead.

They DID have divisions that were little more than brigade strength.

This isn’t a racist stereotype, it is history.

That the poor bloody Italian soldier fought so well given all the handicaps I’ve listed is a testament to his willingness to put up with suffering beyond what should have been necessary or acceptable.

The Battles at El-Alamein is an example of this willingness to fight.

People seem to take large numbers of troops as a sign of cowardice without realising that they’d surrendered after having been outflanked and when they lacked the transport to redeploy, and after both their ammunition and most of their water was exhausted.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Jeez Eurofed, Calm down!

The Italians in world War Two WERE poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly supplied and poorly lead.

They DID have divisions that were little more than brigade strength.

This isn’t a racist stereotype, it is history.

That the poor bloody Italian soldier fought so well given all the handicaps I’ve listed is a testament to his willingness to put up with suffering beyond what should have been necessary or acceptable.

The Battles at El-Alamein is an example of this willingness to fight.

People seem to take large numbers of troops as a sign of cowardice without realising that they’d surrendered after having been outflanked and when they lacked the transport to redeploy, and after both their ammunition and most of their water was exhausted.

Cook, I have no argument with the manifold problems you quote about equipment, training, quality of officer corps of WWII Italian army (if anything, I also get PO when one copies and paste these problems on WWI one, which did no better and no worse than the other GW belligerants). I only get mad when one tries to come up with a decent PoD or TL or AH challenge to overcome those problems, and you have the usual stereotype-spouting smartass poster that comes and effectively says "No, it can't be, Italy was too much screwed up, it could not ever improve enough to be a competent belligerant in a general conflict, no matter the PoD". That cannot but look as a racist stereotype in my eyes.

And for the record, I find the parallel vicious stereotype of the French as "surrender monkeys" as equally loathsome, since the poor Latin cousins, for the manifold flaws of their nationalism, typically fought all their major conflicts but WWII to the bitter end, if anything with too much stubborn bravery. It's a rotten meme that the Anglos invented to prop up the parallel and equally rotten stereotype of their own heroic "nevah surrendah" invincibility.
 
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Cook

Banned
I only get mad when one tries to come up with a decent PoD or TL or AH challenge to overcome those problems, and you have the usual stereotype-spouting smartass poster that comes and effectively says "No, it can't be, Italy was too much screwed up, it could not ever improve enough to be a competent belligerant in a general conflict, no matter the PoD".

You think you get mad?

Try having family connections to BOTH sides of Alamein?;)

But seriously I think it’s important to just calmly counter perceived stereotypes if you see them or factual errors that jump out at you.
 
WI Italians had established a greater military capability prior to the outbreak of WW2 (e.g. active embedding of German command structures & units, joint training & military maneuvers, 'exchange programs' with SS to foster greater cooperation and modeling of fascist ideals etc). How would this impact upon their war effort?

Apologies in advance if this is total ASB! :eek:

If you want a prewar POD there is one. It would be to keep the CVT (Italian expeditionary corps used in Spain) together as a unit. They had extensive combat experience, had practiced acting in concert with tanks and aircraft, and by the end of that war where decently close to first class. If this nucleus of 60,000 men with seasoned officers was kept together and perhaps sent to Austria to do joint exercises and familiarizations with the Germans they would be an excellent manuever force for Benny.

If a reinvigorated CVT was dispatched to Africa prior to Benny declaring war, but before the fall of France they would be able to give Graziani a decent strike force to push the British back to the Nile (the British only had 36k combat troops and very few modern tanks and aircraft when war first broke out in Egypt... the CVT alone would have 60k plus a couple hundred tanks and supporting aircraft, and would be inherrantly more aggressive than the unblooded formations used in otl)
 
I've always thought of the Italian stereotype more as harmless ribbing . . . and originally assumed they just had bad officers. Though Blair's timeline brought to my attention just how terribly equipped they were. Seriously though . . . Six different infantry weapons which took different types of ammo? It a wonder they did half as well as they did with the handicaps given to them. So yeah, some respect for the shit they put up with is due.

Completely off subject, have you ever played Ring of Red, Eurofed? A Japan divided between a Communist and maybe Democratic block? Plausible mecha? Maybe you'd take a look if only because one of the characters that join you in that game is an Italian soldier determined to prove to the world that Italians can kick ass in a war.
 
This, this, this, this, THIS.

Too many people think the real world is nothing more than a game of Civilization where alliances can be made willy-nilly, entire nations suborned at a mouse click, and technologies invented once you gather enough lit bulbs.

Italy is not going to hand over the bulk of it's military to German control, German training, or otherwise ape German practices unless it has no other choice and even then there will be plenty of foot dragging. The Italians will not drop their own aircraft designs for Germans ones, will not drop their own tank designs for German ones, and will not drop their own military ideas fro German ones until, again, they have no other choice and probably not even then.

Getting back to the OP's question, Italy was pretty much a strong as it could have been in WW2. Perhaps more than any other combatant and definitely more than any of the victors, Italy was greatly damaged by WW1 in a number of important ways. Her casualties were massive in proportion to her population, her economy wrecked by the war effort, her gains scanty in relation to the cost, and her national "psyche" deeply scarred by the entire affair.

The effect to her national "psyche" was most telling. The deep seated apathy and distrust WW1 created among the Italian population for any government not only allowed the Fascists to come to power, it also meant that the Fascists weren't then able to either fully unite or motivate the nation they now controlled.

There many deep functional problems with Italy in this period that a few cosmestic changes aren't going to even begin to address. Case in point, after the Air Force and Navy creamed off the top of each conscription class, the Italian Army was left with a majority of conscripts who were illiterate. I don't care how many panzers, how many exchange programs, and many field officers and NCOs Germany gives them, you cannot run a technology dependent blitzkrieg for long with illiterate soldiers.


Bill

The Italians DID build JU-87's Bill. Members of the Commando Supremo DID request licenses to build the Panzer MK 4 as early as March 1941 (not granted till 1943 when it was far too late) and for German aircraft engines, the problem was that the German armament's industry was a maze of beauracractic red tape, infighting and ineptitude that kept this from being done

The Italians DID modify their tactical doctrines after their first round of experience under Rommel's tactical command (I don't have the Italian name for it, but in English it was roughly translated as war of rapid movement)

The Navy and Airforce taking the best candidates was not unique to Italy, the US, Britain and others suffered from this.

Italian divisions, whilst needing some handholding to get started, and combat experience to weed out dead wood could perform up to par. The Ariette and Trieste mechanized divisions which served with the Panzer Army Africa for 2 years+ became EXCELLENT field divisions, capable of being given and expected to accomplish important tasks by Rommel. They where just as important to his order of battle as 15th and 21st Panzer. The problem was that this sort of integration and handholding to turn Italian divisions into first class formations only happened with those two divisions in Africa and the Livorno division in Siciliy (which had extensive training and support from the Hermann Goering Panzer division) whilst the rest of the Italian army was left to fend for themselves.

It was one of Hitler's major failings to not use the time between July 1940 and June 1941, when the bulk of his field army was not actively employed other than training, to conduct training with large parts of the Italian army. Not necessarily integrate them into German command, but at least to train them in German methods of fighting and help them gain experience and select good officers. Hitler also had a bad record of choosing people for these sort of tasks... Rommel was seen by the Italian General Staff and his own as a joke for his appointment since he had made a name for himself not only embarassing but humiliating the Italian army (only his superb conduct as a field leader overrode this). Kesseling and Hube where not exactly beacons of unity either plus they didn't command the language (there is an anecdote from Caverello where he said the only Italian that Hube knew was an empressive collection of curse words)

A more careful and wise choice would have either been Manstein himself (his record of working with the Romanians was good) or Kleist who spoke Italian and had cooperated with them to some degree in Yugoslavia and Greece without being an abrasive dick about it like Rommel
 

kenmac

Banned
Jeez Eurofed, Calm down!

The Italians in world War Two WERE poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly supplied and poorly lead.

They DID have divisions that were little more than brigade strength.

This isn’t a racist stereotype, it is history.

That the poor bloody Italian soldier fought so well given all the handicaps I’ve listed is a testament to his willingness to put up with suffering beyond what should have been necessary or acceptable.

The Battles at El-Alamein is an example of this willingness to fight.

People seem to take large numbers of troops as a sign of cowardice without realising that they’d surrendered after having been outflanked and when they lacked the transport to redeploy, and after both their ammunition and most of their water was exhausted.

The above in bold is true but Italian fighting will was also much lower for a number of reasons.
A good comparison would be between the Romanians and Italians on the Eastern Front.
 
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