Spot the Jet powered Slug

[marathag]

Two different Nations requested that that a new Fighter be developed to use the new turbojet designs, that would allow a single engine aircraft, rather than the initial low powered twin turbojet design.

Both designs started during WWII, before 1945. One had it's first flight in Spring, 1945, the other, early Fall, 1946. Both companies had made very successful aircraft during the War

Both were of composite construction, using both plywood and aluminum

Both used four 20mm cannons for armament

One had a centrifugal compressor, the other axial flow. 3350lbf thrust vs 3150lbf

Plane 'A' had 5100 pound payload, 'B' had 5600 pound payload.

Both had roughly 1200 mile range

'A' had 60 sq.ft wing area more than 'B'

'A' had 4800 ft/min climb and 550mph top speed, 'B' had 8000 ft/min and 595mph

One was derided as worthless, while the other had 100 times as many produced, a wild success.

I feel that people may be able to guess the successful one, but would like people to post their guesses for both. One was a champion, the other, unloved. Was A the Slug and B the Winner, or other way areound?

Numbers above have been slightly rounded, to hinder any Google-Fu that may be attempted

 

[Draconis]

F-84 as the slug. The F-86 as the winner?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Well I am fairly convinced that A = De Havilland Vampire

Pretty sure B = Vought F6U Pirate

 

[marathag]

Well I am fairly convinced that A = De Havilland Vampire

Pretty sure B = Vought F6U Pirate

Winner!

Despite the Pirate having far better stats on paper, the USN hated it, with only 33 made

 

[marathag]

Winner!

Despite the Pirate having far better stats on paper, the USN hated it, with only 33 made

One wonders what the USN would have thought of the Sea Vampire

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Winner!

Despite the Pirate having far better stats on paper, the USN hated it, with only 33 made

One wonders what the USN would have thought of the Sea Vampire

There are other parameters that paper stats do not always expose

I am not that well versed in the Pirate but from what I understand they did not fly very much!

We know that the Vampire was very successful for a first Gen Jet fighter - despite its cramped and (compared to later Gen fighters) poorly laid out cockpit (still better than a MIG 15 and 17 imo)

But I have not been able to determine what the issues were with the Pirate other than everyone hating it?

 

[marathag]

F-84 as the slug. The F-86 as the winner?

The Pirate was contemporary of the N.A.A FJ-1 Fury
from the wiki
Specifications (FJ-1)

Line drawings for the FJ-1 Fury.

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 34 ft 5 in (10.48 m)
• Wingspan: 38 ft 2 in (11.63 m)
• Height: 14 ft 10 in (4.52 m)
• Wing area: 221 ft2 (20.5 m2)
• Empty weight: 8,843 lb (4,010 kg)
• Loaded weight: 15,118 lb (6,854 kg)
• Fuel provisions Internal fuel load: 465 gal (1,743 l), Wing Tip Tanks: 2 × 170 gal (644 l)
• Powerplant: 1 × Allison J35-A-2 turbojet, 4,000 lbf (17.8 kN)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 547 mph at 9,000 ft (880 km/h at 2,743 m)
• Range: 1,496 mi, (2,407 km) 1,496 mi (2,407 km) with external tanks
• Service ceiling: 32,000 ft. (9,753 m)
• Rate of climb: 3,300 ft/min at sea level (1,005 m/min)
• Thrust/weight: 0.38
• Stalling speed (power off): 121 mph (106 kn, 194 km/h)

Armament

• Guns: 6 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns (1,500 rounds in total)

On paper, looks worse than the Pirate, as well

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

F-84 as the slug. The F-86 as the winner?

I remember reading that both used the GE J-47 engine but the F-84's was installed with a kink in the exhaust which robbed a lot of thrust.

ETA: The F-84 used a J-35, which hand slightly less thrust, but the straight-winged F-84 was 70mph slower than the Sabre

 

[fastmongrel]

'A' had 4800 ft/min climb and 550mph top speed, 'B' had 8000 ft/min and 595mph

The Pirate only got those climb and speed figures when it was fitted with an afterburning engine which destroyed any chance of a decent range. With a dry engine the Pirate was a slug.

 

[sonofpegasus]

AFAIK The Pirate had very poor directional stability and its low speed handling was not really conducive to safe deck landings or take offs, whereas the Sea Venom apparently had relatively good handing capabilities and was to directionally stable that rather large rudder inputs were required. Horse for courses it would seem.

 

[marathag]

The Pirate only got those climb and speed figures when it was fitted with an afterburning engine which destroyed any chance of a decent range. With a dry engine the Pirate was a slug.

Since dry thrust was nearly the same between the two types, the top speed and climb should have been similar between the two types, given other physical stats were so close.

 

[riggerrob]

The RAF soon relegated Vampires to RCAF Reserve squadrons where their docile handling minimized losses. Most RCAF Reserve pilots had served during WW2 and now flew airliners. They only flew Vampires on weekends or during annual summer "concentrations."

The regular RCAF soon got F-86 Sabres made by Canadair.

 

[Draconis]

The RAF soon relegated Vampires to RCAF Reserve squadrons where their docile handling minimized losses. Most RCAF Reserve pilots had served during WW2 and now flew airliners. They only flew Vampires on weekends or during annual summer "concentrations."
The regular RCAF soon got F-86 Sabres made by Canadair.

Some of those RCAF WW2 vets were still enjoying flying P-51 Mustangs in some of the reserve squadrons in the 1950s. And those wonderful Canadair Sabres were the best versions of the F-86.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Some of those RCAF WW2 vets were still enjoying flying P-51 Mustangs in some of the reserve squadrons in the 1950s. And those wonderful Canadair Sabres were the best versions of the F-86.

Wasn't it a Canadair F86 that Eric Brown said was the best jet he ever flew?