spanish north africia

[altwere]

840 Alfonso king of Asturias dies while failing to put down the basque revolt.
this leads to a much larger basque kingdom,making basque making basque one of the major languages in Spain.
1492. Colombus or an analogous person(due to butterfly affect) dies while fighting against the Moors during the reconquesta. Rather than sending an explority expendation across the Atlantic, the Spanish cross into north Africia.
1493.The Spanish advance eastward to Algers and the Portogease not to be left out expand southward down the Atlantic coast conquering Rabat.
1493/94 Pope Alexander IV hoping to expand Christian Control in Africa calls for a crusade against the Moors.

 

[dreadnought jenkins]

840 Alfonso king of Asturias dies while failing to put down the basque revolt.
this leads to a much larger basque kingdom,making basque making basque one of the major languages in Spain.
1492. Colombus or an analogous person(due to butterfly affect) dies while fighting against the Moors during the reconquesta. Rather than sending an explority expendation across the Atlantic, the Spanish cross into north Africia.
1493.The Spanish advance eastward to Algers and the Portogease not to be left out expand southward down the Atlantic coast conquering Rabat.
1493/94 Pope Alexander IV hoping to expand Christian Control in Africa calls for a crusade against the Moors.

Most of the early explorers of the age of discovery were italian, not spanish, so I doubt all would be explorers die in the requonquista...

 

[altwere]

I agree, my thought was that if the Ibearians were busy in north africa first contact would be delayed and might be as trade rather than by conquest. I'm also thinking of having an early Breton colony on one of the islands off of Maine or Nova Scotia. They, the Bretons were already fishing on both the grand banks and george's bank

 

[Atreus]

Most of the early explorers of the age of discovery were italian, not spanish, so I doubt all would be explorers die in the requonquista...

butterflies kill them off, then.

Now, the (re)discovery of the americas is easy enough to delay, if not to avoid entirely. Just say that the explorers never find Iberian backing. So, even after Europe realizes that there is land across the ocean (Breton fishermen, say), Spain is already focusing on North Africa, and isn't really going to budge.

The question is, with a 9th century POD, what manner of Spain are we talking about. Somehow, I doubt that this is going to be the Castille that arose IOTL. Who unifies Spain, if it ever unifies? And how do the butterflies spill out over europe? These questions have to be answered.

 

[MNP]

Also, the reason Spain had fits doing NA IOTL was the Ottomans, plus if they develop ships it's going to be increasingly cheaper and more lucrative to use those to trade with Africa rather than seizing the trade routes.

Of course since I had Alt-Spain do both with a PoD in the 8th Century I am not one to talk.

 

[altwere]

Ok lets see. the Vikings no more sucsessful in northern spain than in OTL. Lets allow the easter expantion of Breton into Normandy stay, This has been postulated by the study of french dialects, so that that if there were Normans they were either still speaking Norse or Breton,Not French, wouldn't English look different. That still leaves Spain. So lets have 4 countries on the peninsula and the Basque on will include some of what is currently part of Southern French, Gascony and up the coast as far as Aquitaine. I'll need some more resurch on Basque and Breton Names. I think that there would have been several alancies among the countries. Ferdinand and Isabelle's Marriage was to allow the final expulsion of the Moors.

 

[Lusitania]

One of the reasons that the Portuguese started exploring wsa that following the conquest of Ceuta 1415 its value as a center of trade disapeared as muslim traders moved to other cities. So the Portuguese went south trying to get to the source of the goods that had been traded in Ceuta.

Conquering of Marrocos or Algiers will not provide the Christian countries with imense wealth. These were not immensely wealthly countries. THere would be continued pressure and incentives to continue exploring and finding new trade routes.

People wanted the goods that came from the orient and there was only two was to get them. Through the muslim controlled territories, around them through the south and west.

So no mater what there will continue to be pressure to find the route to India and the orient.

 

[Grey Wolf]

One of the reasons that the Portuguese started exploring wsa that following the conquest of Ceuta 1415 its value as a center of trade disapeared as muslim traders moved to other cities. So the Portuguese went south trying to get to the source of the goods that had been traded in Ceuta.

Conquering of Marrocos or Algiers will not provide the Christian countries with imense wealth. These were not immensely wealthly countries. THere would be continued pressure and incentives to continue exploring and finding new trade routes.

People wanted the goods that came from the orient and there was only two was to get them. Through the muslim controlled territories, around them through the south and west.

So no mater what there will continue to be pressure to find the route to India and the orient.

A very interesting point about how the taking of a trade centre kills the centre if nobody is willing (or able) to trade their anymore. I hadn't really thought of it before

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[MNP]

Ok lets see. the Vikings no more sucsessful in northern spain than in OTL. Lets allow the easter expantion of Breton into Normandy stay, This has been postulated by the study of french dialects, so that that if there were Normans they were either still speaking Norse or Breton,Not French, wouldn't English look different. That still leaves Spain. So lets have 4 countries on the peninsula and the Basque on will include some of what is currently part of Southern French, Gascony and up the coast as far as Aquitaine. I'll need some more resurch on Basque and Breton Names. I think that there would have been several alancies among the countries. Ferdinand and Isabelle's Marriage was to allow the final expulsion of the Moors.

Ferdinand and Isabella are not even going to be born. Depending on how it shakes out after Alfonso II dies, Leon and Galicia might exist but how depends on how he divides the kingdom. Castille and Aragon certainly won't. You also have to come up with a reason Charlemagne's kids don't just retake Aquitaine which they will probably do if the Vikings aren't more of a threat to them than they were in our history.

You might have better luck with a Basque-united Spain if you try something with Sancho III and Navarre.

 

[altwere]

Navarre under the Aritza's who come to power during the revolt in which Alfonzo died expand up the coast while the descendants of Charlemagne fight amoungst themselves.
In Iberia the christian kingdoms slowly expand south at the expense of the Moors, by the mid 1400's there are five kingdoms on the peninsula. Two are Romance speaking, Portugal and Asturias . Galacia is Keltic speaking and Navarre is Basque. There is also a remnant Moorish Kingdom in the southeast. In 1482 the Iberian league is formed with the blessing of the pope,who hopes that this will allow the conquest of the remaining Moors. By 1492 this has happened,but at the price of the Heirs of Asturias. King Rodrigo IV of Asturias considers marring his daughter to the heir of Portugal.

 

[altwere]

1494 the response to pope Alexander's call for a crusade is more than he had hoped for,although it mostly men from western europe as the Holy Roman Empire already has its hands full with the Ottaman's. A crusader fleet leaves from the ports of southern France.They are meet by the Iberians sweeping east and soon control a swath across the costial plain of North Africa to the Egyptian border. The Mamluks fight well but they are also worried about the Ottaman's who are expanding south through Syria, so they are unwilling to strip their eastern border.

 

[Raymann]

Bit of advice: Give a title to each post that's part of your TL, so people will know it's not just another post. Like "Chapter 6: The Invasion of Tunis" or something like that.

It's also very helpful to have at least a few paragraphs written in each post of the TL. People aren't going to invest in commenting on your TL if there isn't much to read.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Bit of advice: Give a title to each post that's part of your TL, so people will know it's not just another post. Like "Chapter 6: The Invasion of Tunis" or something like that.

It's also very helpful to have at least a few paragraphs written in each post of the TL. People aren't going to invest in commenting on your TL if there isn't much to read.

Oh, yes. and put spaces between your paragraphs.

 

[altwere]

Thank you for the advice.
Part II the Manluks collapse.
The manluks collaspe with the remnants fleeing south along the Nile. General Bixintxo Aritza,brother of the King of Navarre, proclaims himself King,by the grace of God, of Egypt. He is acclaimed by the crusader Army, the Pope and most of all his elder brother, who is happy to have him out of the country.
Soon after the Conquest the Country is flooded with Iberian Clergy. This causes conflict with the Coptic Church and several minor revolts among the general population. Pope Alexander quickly issues a papal bull confirming that the Coptic church is a separate Rite under the pope and that they are not heretics. The inquisition is not happy.
The last of the Manluk leader are reported to have died in the Sud swamps to the south.
1500.
King Bixintxo urges the crusader army to move into Palestine, urging them to "free" Jerusalem before the Ottamans arrive. He is happy to see them.
Meanwhile Don Hernando de la Santa Marie y Rodrigo hearing roomers of gold leads an expendition south over the Atlas mountains, Most die but a few return with gold from ambushed Tourag caravans.
After several years of war the population of North Africa has fall by 1/3-1/2, especially in the areas that the crusaders went through. Immigration from Iberia is incouraged.

 

[Raymann]

How about a map? I'd like to see how North Africa is divided up. And what will the Europeans do when they find out of the Sahara trade routes?

 

[altwere]

The Bretons
1500 a Breton fishing boat on the George's Bank gets hit by a whale. The crew managers to keep the boat afloat landing on Sable island off the coast of Nova Scotia. The crew survives on fish and dulse, repairing to boat over the winter and returning to Europe the following fall.
1502. Several families from Brittany , under the leadership of Arzhur the Breton settle on several island of the coast in the Gulf of maine. Trade starts with the Micmacs . the Breton trade iron tools for Furs.
1510 A drunk Breton fisherman spills the beans about a vast rich land across the ocean.
Fergu Ri of Kelkerrie on the west coast of Ireland hears these rumors and remembers the Stories of St Brendan. Western Ireland is also having increasing problems with raid from the Dublin enclave of the kingdom of York, sends four ships west across the Atlantic.
The Irish start several small settlements and trade increases.

 

[altwere]

The map will be up by tomorrow.
The Europeans will try to cross the Sahara and many will die . The European control will extend south to the edge of the desert

 

[altwere]

North Africa, circa 1500

 

[Raymann]

Very interesting.

I don't think Egypt's control will extend that far south so soon but it's definitely not ASB. It might also be a good idea to include Ethiopia in the TL as around 1500 or so they had good relations with Portugal. They might even get a large tech boost from being in proximity to a European controlled state.

 

[altwere]

Ethiopia,humm sounds interesting. Give me a few days,currently I'm working on filling a several hundred year gap.
1505. representatives of the Ethiopian church travel to Rome hoping to hold discussions with the Pope. They have spend several weeks in Alexandra,speaking with the leaders of the Coptic church. The religious climate in Egypt has calmed down with the departure of the Crusaders and the militant church orders into Palestine.