Southern Colonys go back to UK in ARW?

Canis Lupus

From what I have read, the southern colonys werent as enthusiastic about the Revolution as the northern colonys(Mass stands out)and I've head that they threatened to break with the northern colonys on atleast one occasion.
Well my question is thus: Is there anyway that we can get the southern colonys(Georgia, the Carolinas, but probably not Virginia) to side with England in the ARW, go back to England at some point during it, or have the south lost to the new USA as part of a peace?
It would make the War of 1812(if it even happens) very interesting,IMO, as the USA would have a hostile power right on their southern border, within easy striking distance of DC.
This would also have interesting reprocussions on the Lousisana Purchase, if it even happens at all(perhaps Nappy escapes to Louisisana and trys to reestablish the Empire in North America? would the US help? would Mexico? would the UK southern colony invade?)
 

Canis Lupus

map showing possibilitys/questions:

possibilitys.PNG
 
Guildencrantz

Guildencrantz

DelawareWerewolf said:
From what I have read, the southern colonys werent as enthusiastic about the Revolution as the northern colonys(Mass stands out)and I've head that they threatened to break with the northern colonys on atleast one occasion.
Well my question is thus: Is there anyway that we can get the southern colonys(Georgia, the Carolinas, but probably not Virginia) to side with England in the ARW, go back to England at some point during it, or have the south lost to the new USA as part of a peace?
It would make the War of 1812(if it even happens) very interesting,IMO, as the USA would have a hostile power right on their southern border, within easy striking distance of DC.
This would also have interesting reprocussions on the Lousisana Purchase, if it even happens at all(perhaps Nappy escapes to Louisisana and trys to reestablish the Empire in North America? would the US help? would Mexico? would the UK southern colony invade?)
Click to expand...
Nice POD. The Northern colonies will quickly invade the south, once they lick their wounds from the ARW. Expect a much more violent War of 1812,
 

Canis Lupus

Looking even farther ahead, will Southern planters be resistant to UK abolishment of slavery? ACW with UK playing the part of the Union?
the US aboloishes slavery earlier(with no S states would be easier)
maybe no Nat Turner rebellion?
 

Nicomacheus

First, the British don't offer freedom to slaves who serve against the rebels and don't send Cornwallis to the South. Second, Jefferson insists on keeping the language about George III being responsible for slavery in the Declaration of Independence. Third, Britain offers really, really good terms for colonies who "Return to their King and Empire," while at the same time laying waste to more countryside in the North.

The problem is that the lower South will instantly have problems because the British won't want them settling westward and creating problems with the Creeks and the Spanish. Maybe, tho, the US only gets its own land, with no western territory. The rest is given to the Lower South, so that gives them somewhere to go, but there will still be problems with Indian policy.

The War of 1812 won't happen at all, since New England fervently opposed it. Maybe the US supports France in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars in the attempt to conquer more land. This is the closest to TTL's War of 1812. The Southerners instantly overrun lots of Louisiana and New Spain and hold the border at North Carolina. Canada fights the US and Britain marches through and burns things.

If you really want to take this to strange places, then Britain decides to force the US back under British rule. Former Revolutionaries trek out West and found some new state in Oregon or California. Things get really hairy, however, when Britain begins moving to ban slavery. The Loyal Colonies in the Lower South are torn between their traditional ties to the Crown and their peculiar institution. I'm not sure which way this goes.
 

Nova

Either Philadelphia or New York becomes the capital, Washington D.C. will never exist. With fewer states and more similar economies, it is quite possible that the Articles of Confederation hold, we may not see a constitution.

We're all forgetting that Britain abolished slavery for one reason: They no longer held a vast amount of land that could be effectively worked by slaves. In TTL, with slavery still profiting Britain, it will not be abolished, or at least not without a fight.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Nova said:
Either Philadelphia or New York becomes the capital, Washington D.C. will never exist. With fewer states and more similar economies, it is quite possible that the Articles of Confederation hold, we may not see a constitution.
Click to expand...

Hrmm.

You've got Britain occupying the NW still; the Southern colonies British, and Virginia, New York, and Massachussetts still in the Union

I think you still see the Constitution.
 

Canis Lupus

Isn't it possible that the UK would have drawn a striaght line to the MS River(otl TN N border) from VA and given the north to the US and kept the south?
 
MrP

MrP

Banned
Nova said:
Either Philadelphia or New York becomes the capital, Washington D.C. will never exist. With fewer states and more similar economies, it is quite possible that the Articles of Confederation hold, we may not see a constitution.

We're all forgetting that Britain abolished slavery for one reason: They no longer held a vast amount of land that could be effectively worked by slaves. In TTL, with slavery still profiting Britain, it will not be abolished, or at least not without a fight.
Click to expand...

Areas controlled by British interests retained slavery. The slave trade, however, was quashed, regardless. I forget how long company-controlled areas retained slavery after it had been officially abolished in government controlled areas. Several decades at least, IIRC.
 
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DuQuense

History of the Carolina Commonweath

Britian will no get Florida, it already owns it. Spain just won't get it back.

The location of the Capital on the marysland/virginia border was a comprimise worked out by Hamilton over the national debt issue.
The southern states got the capital in return for supporting the issueing of US national bonds.

no War of 1812, instead the phoney war of 1798 goes hot, IIRC It was the Southern states that held back in that one.

repealing the proclamation of 1763 about westard expansion will probaly be one of the points of the return to British rule.

No 1806 Argentinia expidition, here Britian attacks Mexico, and takes the northern half [ south Lousisiana,Texas, California, Sonora]
Over the next 20 years Americans move in to the top half of Lousisina. the same way they are moving into Ontario, & the Maritimes

By 1845 ?Americans outnumber Canadaians by 2/1 in Ontario and the Maritines.
In 1848 attemps by Americans to have Ontario & the Maritimes join the USAC, lead to War with Britian.
American Troops move north to support the Rebels, rapidly taking control of Canada.

In the South British force move north along the Virginia coast, and up the Mississippi.
Due to the Increasing pressure from Britian over the Slave question, support form the southern states is relutant & lackluster.

Following the Treaty in 1850 the NC/Virginia Border of 36o30' is extended across the continent.
In 1851, Britian begins a complet reorganization, and Updating of it's military, incorporating the lessons of the war of '48.

Following the 1852 discovery of Gold in the Great falls region of Virginia, & Marysland, Virginia finnaly passes the Slave emancipation bill that has been presented every year since 1838.
Marysland and Delaware follow in 1853. [Gradual emancipation, but they were the only slave states left.

in 1857 Russia attacks the ottoman Empire and the Crimean War begins. needing Cash, Russia sells Alaska to the US.
[and to keep it away from GB]

In 1861, britian finally Bans slavery in the Carolina Commonwealth, This follows the ban in England in 1803, and in the Caribbean in 1834.

In 1882 talks begin about Carolina independence, and in 1885, The Commonwealth of Carolina becomes independent.

Streching from the Pinapple fields of Jamiaca and Bahama, north to the Tea
Plantations of north Carolina, west across the cotton belt of Lousiana and East Texas, past the Cattle ranchs of west texas and Arizonia, to the Vast Hemp Farms of California and Sonora, The Carolina Commonwealth is a true Jewel in Britians Imperial Crown.
 

Darkling

It is rather difficult to get Britain to win the south and not the whole affair.

Assuming Britain for some reason agrees to the proposal floating around of a Uti Possidetis (which the French were floating) or a 10 state solution (which various Northern officials were floating) then it is rather likely that the US gets the OTL ten states minus parts of Maine and New York (including Erie).

Britain maintains Florida to protect it's southern domain.

When the war with Spain kicks off troops are over the border and into New Orleans fairly quickly, with troops operating out of Canada taking St Louis.

The US would be considerably less well off without the Southern imports providing an inflow of money and the interior of the continent would belong to Britain.
 
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