Slow Drift to War Europe 1984
- Thread starter Farmer12
- Start date
I can't answer for the US Army, but our Leopards carried 59 main gun rounds.
We normally carried 3 smoke, 12 HESH and the remainder APDS, or later (post 1981) APFSDS.
Every tank has MBGD's (multi barrel grenade launchers).
The Leopard has 8 fixed tubes, and we carried at least one reload.
Farmer 12,
Ammo load varied by mission, tank and location. My company had a full load of main gun rounds and small arms. Each tank had as I have stated 63 main gun rounds (105mm). Generally 2/3 of that was Armored Piercing Discarding Sabot (APDS), the other 1/3 was High Explosive Plastic (HEP), minus two rounds of White Phosperous (WP). We did carry two loads of Red Phosperous Smoke Grenades (16 grenades) for our grenade launchers and at least three thermite grenades in case we had to destroy our tanks (1 for the gun, 1 for the radio and 1 for the engine).
Hope this answers your question,
Major Clark
Ammo load varied by mission, tank and location. My company had a full load of main gun rounds and small arms. Each tank had as I have stated 63 main gun rounds (105mm). Generally 2/3 of that was Armored Piercing Discarding Sabot (APDS), the other 1/3 was High Explosive Plastic (HEP), minus two rounds of White Phosperous (WP). We did carry two loads of Red Phosperous Smoke Grenades (16 grenades) for our grenade launchers and at least three thermite grenades in case we had to destroy our tanks (1 for the gun, 1 for the radio and 1 for the engine).
Hope this answers your question,
Major Clark
Major; one quick question.
Occasionally, when we used the ranges at Graf, we would "trade" for HEAT rounds, as the Canadians were never issued those.
The sights allowed for HEAT, so more for curiousity sake than anything else, we wanted to fire some.
Of course, when we trained at Ft Hood on the M60A1AOS, we also fired a lot of HEAT, more HEAT than HEP, if memory serves.
Did your company not normally carry HEAT?
I can understand why they wouldn't, considering your immediate threat, but your comment dredged up memories from oh so long ago.
RetiredCdnTanker,
Your comments made me go back to some of my old notes. After 1981 we replaced our APDS with APFSDS and changed out a little more than half our HEP for HEAT. Frankly I would have preferred to carry more APFSDS than HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank). HEAT would have been useful for BMPs on down but so would APFSDS (Armored Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot). HEP (High Explosive Plastic) was superior to HEAT in the anti-personnel role and in "building busting". I didn't like WP but did admit it was great for "building clearing" for its incendiary effects.
I suspect that this is more detail than anyone wanted to hear!
Major Clark
Your comments made me go back to some of my old notes. After 1981 we replaced our APDS with APFSDS and changed out a little more than half our HEP for HEAT. Frankly I would have preferred to carry more APFSDS than HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank). HEAT would have been useful for BMPs on down but so would APFSDS (Armored Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot). HEP (High Explosive Plastic) was superior to HEAT in the anti-personnel role and in "building busting". I didn't like WP but did admit it was great for "building clearing" for its incendiary effects.
I suspect that this is more detail than anyone wanted to hear!
Major Clark
Thank you, Major!
It's good to know my memory hasn't totally failed.
We also swapped APDS for APFSDS in late 81/early 82. It took a while, as our entire war stock in Germany had to be swapped.
I totally agree on your assessments on the ammunition types. We never adopted Heat for the 105, however, with the 120 there wasn't much choice.
HEP/Hesh was an amazing, versatile round for almost any stationary targets, bunkers, buildings and so on.
Not that I would know this, but WP also worked very well on vehicles.......
11am Brussel NATO HQ A series of messages were looked at, from West Germany was the dispute over the 25th Fallschirmjaeger. The problem was that the only person who could deal with that problem would be General Rogers and that meant setting up a meeting. After a quick consultation with the General Rogers office a time for a meeting was scheduled for the next day. So that he could make the final decision.
Then a contingent of the Canadian officers arrived with news for General Rogers letting him know that the Canadian Armies 5th brigade was still stuck in Canada and no one knew exactly when that brigade would be able to move. The reason was that not ships with the capacity to move their heavy trucks was on of the problems. Also there was not enough space to move all the armored vehicles of the Brigade. They apologized for the situation but they assured General Rogers all efforts were being undertaken to move the 5th Brigade to Norway.
Then one of the junior officers commented, **Well sir, I was thinking. ** That brought a sudden comment, from a more senior officer, **Captains are not allowed to think they are suppose, to just obey orders. ** That brought laughter from the other officers in the room. Once the laughter died down, General Rogers asked the Captain what his idea was. The officer commented, ** Well if the Fast Convoy has available space then why not let the Canadian transport those vehicles on our ships. **
One of the other officers pointed out that the convoy is going to Antwerp and the Canadians are going to central Norway that is a hell of a long way apart. The captain looked a little embarrassed until General Rogers commented, **Yah, but at least the vehicles would be on the right side of the Atlantic Ocean and we could ship the vehicles north by rail then cross over to Oslo on ferries then the rest of the way by rail north. It will be a hell of a lot easier than moving the entire 40th ID from California to the Port of New York. **
That, quieted the room down and then General Rogers gave his orders, **First I want a message the JCS stating my concerns about the failure to make sure that the Fast Convoy would be fully loaded. Include in that message that the Canadians are having problems getting the entire 5th brigade to Norway. Tell them that if they let the Canadians transport their excess equipment on the Fast Convoy. I will make sure the equipment makes it the rest of the way to Norway so that we will not have to commit the 6 MAB to Norway. That ought to make the JCS as cooperative as hell. ** That comment caused some laughter with his staff.
Then senior Canadian officer, General Murdock, commented, ** I and lot of others in the Mobile Force would rather have the 5th brigade in Germany. Right now, one brigade in Norway and one in West Germany. This means we will have to support two different brigades in two different countries. Not to mention the battalion and an artillery battery attached to the Allied Mobile Force that is currently in Demark. The problem is it puts a lot of pressure on our logistical capacity to support all these units in three totally different locations. General Rogers nodded his head, he realized the problems that faced the Canadians and he sympathized. Then he replied,** Well that is something you will have to take up with your political masters. **
Col. Henri Delacroix, he was proud of his ancestry, his family could trace it roots to the early days of French Canada. They had been farmers and sometime fur traders. They had fought for France and his grandpere, told everyone that the family fought for France at the battle on the Plain of Abraham. But when France lost the war his family had stayed and later on fought for the British during the American Revolution and later on during the War of 1812. When World War one broke out the Delacroix’s had been amongst the first to join and most of them never returned from France. His father had fought during World War II in the Three Rivers Regiment and Henri Delacroix had joined Canadian Army to be a tanker and now in the Canadian Armed Forces he was still a tanker. What annoyed him that he had what looked like a war on the way and he was on staff assignment.
Col. Delacroix commented, **The problem is that the 5th brigade does not have a tank battalion attached to it. To operate successfully in the Central Front, you need a tank battalion. Without a tank battalion the 5th brigade will be operating with one arm stuck behind its back. We are forming an understrength tank battalion but I don’t think it would be wise to commit that battalion to Europe without a little more training. ** General Murdock looking a little grim replied, **Col. Delacroix your right about that, just wish the politicians had bought more tanks so we could have that second tank battalion ready when we needed it. ** No one said a word, all of the officers were from the regular armies of their respective countries and all had similar complaints.
10am London The Ministry of Defense had invited the American Embassies Military Attache to tell him that the British Government was seriously considering offering the Ghurka Brigade and other British units based in Hong Kong and the New Territory to help fight in South Korea. But they would need help with the movement of the brigade to South Korea. They wanted to see if the Americans wanted the additional forces. The Military Attache was quite happy with the offer, he had served as a platoon commander in the fifties and later on as a battalion executive officer and still later he had commanded a brigade of troops in South Korea. The addition of a large brigade of elite troops would be a welcome addition to the heavily outnumbered Americans and South Koreans. He told the Defense Minister that he would personally call to the Pentagon today inform the Secretary of Defense about the offer. He was quite sure that something could be done to move the brigade to South Korea.
Then the Ministry of Defense commented that they were going to ask the Australian to send its 3rd brigade of troops to allow the two countries to form a commonwealth division. The Military Attache had no idea if helping the movement of the Australian 1st Brigade was possible but he would also inform the Pentagon of that idea to.
10AM Dover UK The convoy from Leningrad passed through the straits of Dover with Royal Navy and Air Force were both keeping an eye on the convoy. Betting money was now favoring Angola.
Then a contingent of the Canadian officers arrived with news for General Rogers letting him know that the Canadian Armies 5th brigade was still stuck in Canada and no one knew exactly when that brigade would be able to move. The reason was that not ships with the capacity to move their heavy trucks was on of the problems. Also there was not enough space to move all the armored vehicles of the Brigade. They apologized for the situation but they assured General Rogers all efforts were being undertaken to move the 5th Brigade to Norway.
Then one of the junior officers commented, **Well sir, I was thinking. ** That brought a sudden comment, from a more senior officer, **Captains are not allowed to think they are suppose, to just obey orders. ** That brought laughter from the other officers in the room. Once the laughter died down, General Rogers asked the Captain what his idea was. The officer commented, ** Well if the Fast Convoy has available space then why not let the Canadian transport those vehicles on our ships. **
One of the other officers pointed out that the convoy is going to Antwerp and the Canadians are going to central Norway that is a hell of a long way apart. The captain looked a little embarrassed until General Rogers commented, **Yah, but at least the vehicles would be on the right side of the Atlantic Ocean and we could ship the vehicles north by rail then cross over to Oslo on ferries then the rest of the way by rail north. It will be a hell of a lot easier than moving the entire 40th ID from California to the Port of New York. **
That, quieted the room down and then General Rogers gave his orders, **First I want a message the JCS stating my concerns about the failure to make sure that the Fast Convoy would be fully loaded. Include in that message that the Canadians are having problems getting the entire 5th brigade to Norway. Tell them that if they let the Canadians transport their excess equipment on the Fast Convoy. I will make sure the equipment makes it the rest of the way to Norway so that we will not have to commit the 6 MAB to Norway. That ought to make the JCS as cooperative as hell. ** That comment caused some laughter with his staff.
Then senior Canadian officer, General Murdock, commented, ** I and lot of others in the Mobile Force would rather have the 5th brigade in Germany. Right now, one brigade in Norway and one in West Germany. This means we will have to support two different brigades in two different countries. Not to mention the battalion and an artillery battery attached to the Allied Mobile Force that is currently in Demark. The problem is it puts a lot of pressure on our logistical capacity to support all these units in three totally different locations. General Rogers nodded his head, he realized the problems that faced the Canadians and he sympathized. Then he replied,** Well that is something you will have to take up with your political masters. **
Col. Henri Delacroix, he was proud of his ancestry, his family could trace it roots to the early days of French Canada. They had been farmers and sometime fur traders. They had fought for France and his grandpere, told everyone that the family fought for France at the battle on the Plain of Abraham. But when France lost the war his family had stayed and later on fought for the British during the American Revolution and later on during the War of 1812. When World War one broke out the Delacroix’s had been amongst the first to join and most of them never returned from France. His father had fought during World War II in the Three Rivers Regiment and Henri Delacroix had joined Canadian Army to be a tanker and now in the Canadian Armed Forces he was still a tanker. What annoyed him that he had what looked like a war on the way and he was on staff assignment.
Col. Delacroix commented, **The problem is that the 5th brigade does not have a tank battalion attached to it. To operate successfully in the Central Front, you need a tank battalion. Without a tank battalion the 5th brigade will be operating with one arm stuck behind its back. We are forming an understrength tank battalion but I don’t think it would be wise to commit that battalion to Europe without a little more training. ** General Murdock looking a little grim replied, **Col. Delacroix your right about that, just wish the politicians had bought more tanks so we could have that second tank battalion ready when we needed it. ** No one said a word, all of the officers were from the regular armies of their respective countries and all had similar complaints.
10am London The Ministry of Defense had invited the American Embassies Military Attache to tell him that the British Government was seriously considering offering the Ghurka Brigade and other British units based in Hong Kong and the New Territory to help fight in South Korea. But they would need help with the movement of the brigade to South Korea. They wanted to see if the Americans wanted the additional forces. The Military Attache was quite happy with the offer, he had served as a platoon commander in the fifties and later on as a battalion executive officer and still later he had commanded a brigade of troops in South Korea. The addition of a large brigade of elite troops would be a welcome addition to the heavily outnumbered Americans and South Koreans. He told the Defense Minister that he would personally call to the Pentagon today inform the Secretary of Defense about the offer. He was quite sure that something could be done to move the brigade to South Korea.
Then the Ministry of Defense commented that they were going to ask the Australian to send its 3rd brigade of troops to allow the two countries to form a commonwealth division. The Military Attache had no idea if helping the movement of the Australian 1st Brigade was possible but he would also inform the Pentagon of that idea to.
10AM Dover UK The convoy from Leningrad passed through the straits of Dover with Royal Navy and Air Force were both keeping an eye on the convoy. Betting money was now favoring Angola.
9AM Boston Ma
The undercover agents placed by the Police at the meeting for the Peace Protest were pretty much in agreement that overwhelming majority of the people at the meeting wanted a peaceful protest. But they were concerned about two groups one that wanted to form human blocks on the railroad tracks to prevent the military from shipping weapons of destruction into Boston. There were also that some elements of the Protestors were looking to cause some sort of incident that would reflect badly on the Boston Police and the National Guard which to them meant that Reagan would look bad to the people of the country.
One of the undercover agents had went along with some of the more aggressive protestors. They had been talking about doing all sorts of things to stir up the mob and especially, to get the police and Guard to over react. Just how much was real and how much was just talk he did not know. But he did know that at least a few were definitely serious, they were the ones who scared him a little bit. But most he figured were just talking. The senior officers in charge of the intelligence department decide if he saw any of the talkers again he was supposed chat them up and see what he found out. They were going to keep an eye on things but they were not going to give the trouble makers a way of making a few martyrs for the cause if they could help it.
Some of the senior officers proposed a raid on the house where the leadership of the trouble makers met. But the rest of the senior officers were not willing to carry out the raid since they felt that could stir up the followers of the direct-action people.
A third group of protestors were nowhere near the meeting since they already had missions to carry out. Nicholas Peterson had been a member of the SDS and later on he had joined the Weatherman Organization. He had been a bomb maker for the Weatherman Organization when things got to hot. He had gone underground for a while. Then he left the country to fight against the Somoza Regime in Nicaragua. After the revolution, he had grown tired of living in Nicaragua. Then he had slipped back in to America via some undercover routes the Sandinistas had access to. He had then went back underground making contact with a few old friends who like him were waiting for the day the revolutions could be started again.
Now that the War Mongers of American were on the move again. Nick and his friend Mikey Medford had called a friend and in a short time it became quite apparent that Boston was going to be the place to carry out attacks on the United States war machine the word was that a large quantity of vehicles, equipment and other supplies like ammunition were to be shipped to Boston. While not the usual place for the American military to move large quantities of supplies the military had changed its mind about Boston and it would be the one end of a change of fast convoy running to and from Europe.
With that bit of news, Nick and Mikey, had burglarized a gun store, then they, hit a dynamite shed owned by a rock quarry company and after that a bank for money to support the cause. With had slipped into Boston to meet the friend and with them came a couple dozen rifles pistols and shotguns with ammo for all the weapons, several cases of dynamite, fuses and detonators and fifty thousand in cash.
Nick, Mikey and Art Barry were all agreed that the failure of the Weatherman movement, was that the movement was not sufficiently ruthlessness. They were going to be ruthless in their actions, people would die but they were agreed that this was necessary to bring the Revolution. Furthermore, it looked like the word was right a whole bunch of tanks and other assort military vehicle were on the way to Europe via Boston and they were not going to let that happen.
930am Pentagon
The phone call from the United States Army attache to the United Kingdom was to the Secretary of the Army since the Command structure was the 8th US Army. He informed the Secretary of the Army what the British Defense Ministry had told him. The Secretary of the Army calling in the Armies Chief of Staff the two of them agreed that Gurkha brigade would be a plus. Add on the Australians 3rd brigade and they would have close to division of hard fighting troops. They were quite enthusiastic and the return call to the attaché informing him that were very happy at the offer. While they had to get the approval of the Secretary of Defense and the President that would be no problem. They also told the attache to asked the MOD to have the Gurkha brigade contact the 8TH Army in South Korea to start planning the move. The attache was also told that orders will be sent to 8th Army to cooperate with the Gurkha brigade.
That brought a comment from the attache, ** 8th Army will jump at getting the Gurkha brigade and the mere thought of another brigade coming from Australia well they’ll get on hard on at the thought of that happening. ** There was no argument from the other end of the phone. The Secretary of the Army commented that he would tell the Secretary of Defense but since tomorrow would be the fourth of July not much would happen until Thursday the 5th of July. But once the official offer arrived it would be approved and everyone would began to move.
The undercover agents placed by the Police at the meeting for the Peace Protest were pretty much in agreement that overwhelming majority of the people at the meeting wanted a peaceful protest. But they were concerned about two groups one that wanted to form human blocks on the railroad tracks to prevent the military from shipping weapons of destruction into Boston. There were also that some elements of the Protestors were looking to cause some sort of incident that would reflect badly on the Boston Police and the National Guard which to them meant that Reagan would look bad to the people of the country.
One of the undercover agents had went along with some of the more aggressive protestors. They had been talking about doing all sorts of things to stir up the mob and especially, to get the police and Guard to over react. Just how much was real and how much was just talk he did not know. But he did know that at least a few were definitely serious, they were the ones who scared him a little bit. But most he figured were just talking. The senior officers in charge of the intelligence department decide if he saw any of the talkers again he was supposed chat them up and see what he found out. They were going to keep an eye on things but they were not going to give the trouble makers a way of making a few martyrs for the cause if they could help it.
Some of the senior officers proposed a raid on the house where the leadership of the trouble makers met. But the rest of the senior officers were not willing to carry out the raid since they felt that could stir up the followers of the direct-action people.
A third group of protestors were nowhere near the meeting since they already had missions to carry out. Nicholas Peterson had been a member of the SDS and later on he had joined the Weatherman Organization. He had been a bomb maker for the Weatherman Organization when things got to hot. He had gone underground for a while. Then he left the country to fight against the Somoza Regime in Nicaragua. After the revolution, he had grown tired of living in Nicaragua. Then he had slipped back in to America via some undercover routes the Sandinistas had access to. He had then went back underground making contact with a few old friends who like him were waiting for the day the revolutions could be started again.
Now that the War Mongers of American were on the move again. Nick and his friend Mikey Medford had called a friend and in a short time it became quite apparent that Boston was going to be the place to carry out attacks on the United States war machine the word was that a large quantity of vehicles, equipment and other supplies like ammunition were to be shipped to Boston. While not the usual place for the American military to move large quantities of supplies the military had changed its mind about Boston and it would be the one end of a change of fast convoy running to and from Europe.
With that bit of news, Nick and Mikey, had burglarized a gun store, then they, hit a dynamite shed owned by a rock quarry company and after that a bank for money to support the cause. With had slipped into Boston to meet the friend and with them came a couple dozen rifles pistols and shotguns with ammo for all the weapons, several cases of dynamite, fuses and detonators and fifty thousand in cash.
Nick, Mikey and Art Barry were all agreed that the failure of the Weatherman movement, was that the movement was not sufficiently ruthlessness. They were going to be ruthless in their actions, people would die but they were agreed that this was necessary to bring the Revolution. Furthermore, it looked like the word was right a whole bunch of tanks and other assort military vehicle were on the way to Europe via Boston and they were not going to let that happen.
930am Pentagon
The phone call from the United States Army attache to the United Kingdom was to the Secretary of the Army since the Command structure was the 8th US Army. He informed the Secretary of the Army what the British Defense Ministry had told him. The Secretary of the Army calling in the Armies Chief of Staff the two of them agreed that Gurkha brigade would be a plus. Add on the Australians 3rd brigade and they would have close to division of hard fighting troops. They were quite enthusiastic and the return call to the attaché informing him that were very happy at the offer. While they had to get the approval of the Secretary of Defense and the President that would be no problem. They also told the attache to asked the MOD to have the Gurkha brigade contact the 8TH Army in South Korea to start planning the move. The attache was also told that orders will be sent to 8th Army to cooperate with the Gurkha brigade.
That brought a comment from the attache, ** 8th Army will jump at getting the Gurkha brigade and the mere thought of another brigade coming from Australia well they’ll get on hard on at the thought of that happening. ** There was no argument from the other end of the phone. The Secretary of the Army commented that he would tell the Secretary of Defense but since tomorrow would be the fourth of July not much would happen until Thursday the 5th of July. But once the official offer arrived it would be approved and everyone would began to move.
One of the things in your TL I like is that you also take into account peace protestors AND various terrorist inclined elements which were quite strong during 1980's.
I have been looking over the US tank reserves, I have been considering the Sheridan to be handout to fill in. I know it has a problematic history. But there are about seven hundred or so Sheridans are sitting around. If someone need a light recon tank. Its there I am looking for a response simply to gage the reaction of people, who might be on the desperate to fill in holes in their force structure.
The Sheridans could be useful place like Norway and Greece where the terrain is not terribly tank friendly. This lets them use roads and other spots where heavy armor simply cannot go. While the Yugoslavs are not part of the WP and are unlikely to want to play, maybe a unit of light tanks working the Alpini would be appreciated - the Soviets may want to blitz through Asutria and send Hingarian forces against the Italians. The alpine areas there would be a decent place for Sheridans, especially against second/third line troops.
Farmer 12,
Might I recommend you read my story "Fulda Gap, 1983" reference the use of the Sheridan. Specifically Chapters 37-39, 41-42 and 46 as well as the comments in between before going down the path with Sheridan. You may have better luck bringing in older M60A1AOS and M60A3TTS than Sheridan. Both tanks are well known, far more reliable and durable than Sheridan. Main gun ammo is NATO standard for the M60 series while Sheridan is not.
Send Sheridan into Armored Cavalry units and Airborne units remembering that this vehicle was never designed to go one on one with the heavies.
Major Clark
Might I recommend you read my story "Fulda Gap, 1983" reference the use of the Sheridan. Specifically Chapters 37-39, 41-42 and 46 as well as the comments in between before going down the path with Sheridan. You may have better luck bringing in older M60A1AOS and M60A3TTS than Sheridan. Both tanks are well known, far more reliable and durable than Sheridan. Main gun ammo is NATO standard for the M60 series while Sheridan is not.
Send Sheridan into Armored Cavalry units and Airborne units remembering that this vehicle was never designed to go one on one with the heavies.
Major Clark