I originally made this thread in the wrong forum so i made a new one.
How big could the Confederacy be If the civil war ended in September of 1863?
How big could the Confederacy be If the civil war ended in September of 1863?
Size of the CSA
- Thread starter Imperator Frank
- Start date
yourworstnightmare
Banned
The original States that seceded. I doubt they'd grow larger. If they go to war with Spain they might claim Cuba, but I have a feeling the Confederacy would be quite paranoid about US, and not try to stir up other countries against them.
The 11 states that seceded plus the southern portion of the Arizona Territory and Oklahoma.
With no Ft sumter and the civil war starting with an unprovoked attack by the union you could see some of the border state siding with the Confederacy
The 11 states that seceeded. In any likely peace conference, the Southern States would be almost certainly be prepared to negotiate away all rights to the slave border states or territories occupied by CSA forces (or in the case of Indian Territory, allied Indian Nations), in exchange for US recognition of its independence and establishment of normal relations. The CSA would also almost certainly be prepared to accept West Virginia's transfer to the USA.
67th Tigers
Banned
Absolutely not. The two things they absolutely could not accept were the loss of WV and the loss of slavery. These were not negotiable in any peace. The Emancipation Proclamation and the Statehood of WV closed the door on any negotiated settlement.
Quatermain
Banned
I could see them buying/acquiring by other means Cuba, and maybe a few other other Caribbean islands. I think it's also pretty plausible for them(later on)to buy Sonora and Chihuahua, the way they did in Turtledove's books.
Having acquired Mexican territories, the CSA might look there and possibly further south for any further territorial expansions(the way William Walker did), rather than confront the Union again.
Having acquired Mexican territories, the CSA might look there and possibly further south for any further territorial expansions(the way William Walker did), rather than confront the Union again.
67th Tigers, so if offered peace including the original eleven states, some gold in reparations, Oklahoma and even the southern half of Arizona/New Mexico(held solely by the Union) the CSA would reject it over West Virginia?
Oh, dear God...
Quatermain, since none of those islands were up for sale, Cuba least of all, buying isn't an option, and Spain would crush the CSA in a war.
Oh, dear God...
Quatermain, since none of those islands were up for sale, Cuba least of all, buying isn't an option, and Spain would crush the CSA in a war.
67th Tigers
Banned
Yes, pretty much. The Virginians who dominated the war considered the territorial integrity of Virginia sacrosanct.
Quatermain
Banned
Not in our 1863, no. But it is not outside of the bounds of possibility for those islands to be put up for sale, or for the CSA to acquire them the same way and for roughly the same reasons the USA acquired Alaska and the Louisiana Purchase.
Given the existence of the CSA, and a USA that's going tio be bitter and therefore is going to have a reason to be really interested in the enforcement of the Monroe Doctrine(since Britain and France are likely to be involved in the negotiations) it is not completely beyond possibility to see the Caribbean become a 'Confederate lake' by say, the early/mid 1900's with the CSA having heavy influence over the islands/territories they don't govern outright.
I think they could probably have some influence over the Caribbean, but I don't know if they would ever get any territory or statres there. Maybe they could do something with Mexico, but I'm not sure.
67th Tigers, my groan had to do with the issue of the CSA taking Cuba coming up...again.
I also doubt Virginia would have a choice in the matter if the war is ending by negotiated settlement. If no one holds Oklahoma and the Union alone holds New Mexico and Arizona then West Virginia becomes a price to be paid. What's the alternative? More years of war and bloodshed hoping matters don't change for the worse?
Quatermain, the topic has been done to death and it is outside the bounds of possibility. Spain did not sell colonies. Period. The CSA has no future as a naval power so the CSA can't get Cuba by conquest.
I also doubt Virginia would have a choice in the matter if the war is ending by negotiated settlement. If no one holds Oklahoma and the Union alone holds New Mexico and Arizona then West Virginia becomes a price to be paid. What's the alternative? More years of war and bloodshed hoping matters don't change for the worse?
Quatermain, the topic has been done to death and it is outside the bounds of possibility. Spain did not sell colonies. Period. The CSA has no future as a naval power so the CSA can't get Cuba by conquest.
Quatermain
Banned
'Having been done to death' is a charge that could be laid to at least 75% of the secenarios on this website, as well as in alternative history in general. Especially if you're talking about anything to do with the Civil War. If you're going use that for any kind of yardstick, you're going to be in trouble
As for your rather definitive statement that it there is no way that it could ever happen any way, period; I was not aware that you were speaking ex cathedra as the Pope of Alternate History or I wouldn't have brought it up.
All wars come to a negotiated end unless one side is acheives total victory. It is impossible for the CSA to acheive total victory. Barring a total Union victory (which happened in OTL), any end to the ACW on terms favorable to the CSA would be negotiated - very likely with British and/or French assistance - and require compromise.
Of course the CSA would not accept a negotiated peace that involved the loss of slavery. Preservation of slavery in the South was the principal reason the Souktern states seceded, after all. The Emancipation Proclamation would become nothing more than the irrelevent wartime proclamation of a defeated United States, who would be in no position to enforce such a proclamation.
Regarding West Virgina, I fail to see why the CSA might not accept this loss as the price for guaranteed independence.
Nietzsche
Banned
I may be confusing a TL I've read here with real history, but, didn't Spain offer to sell the Philippines to Germany, or is my memory failing me?
Groan.
zoomar, the issue of whether the CSA would accept the loss of West Virginia at a negotiated settlement has been done to death already.
Groan.
Nietzsche, GreatScottMarty, the issue of the Germany offer to buy the Phillipines from Spain has been done to death already.
OK, OK, I'm kidding but Germany was making all sorts of invitations to buy things which no one else had the slightest intent of selling.
Quatermain, now that you recognize my status as the Pope of Alternate History and that I am speaking ex cathedra you may bow and kiss my ring.
More seriously, Spain never sold colonies so unless you can explain an absolute change in Spanish policy over a matter of centuries...
zoomar, the issue of whether the CSA would accept the loss of West Virginia at a negotiated settlement has been done to death already.
Groan.
Nietzsche, GreatScottMarty, the issue of the Germany offer to buy the Phillipines from Spain has been done to death already.
OK, OK, I'm kidding but Germany was making all sorts of invitations to buy things which no one else had the slightest intent of selling.
Quatermain, now that you recognize my status as the Pope of Alternate History and that I am speaking ex cathedra you may bow and kiss my ring.
More seriously, Spain never sold colonies so unless you can explain an absolute change in Spanish policy over a matter of centuries...
OK, all the responses are good. Lets say that the army of the Potomac is destroyed in the seven days battle and lee moves to seige washington by september. Lincoln moves to armistisce i.
Nietzsche
Banned
I wasn't trying to make it sound like they would've, but, I honestly couldn't remember if it were true or just me spending too much time on AH.com..