Six more Ark Royals instead of the AFDs

[Admiral Beez]

Instead of building the Illustrious/Indomitable/Implacable AFD carriers, let's have the RN build six more Ark Royals. The later units can have higher displacement and modifications as the treaty limitations expire, but all ships are essentially Ark Royal clones, with full double hangars, armoured deck below hangar, not above, and focus on large air groups over protection, and the original's poor damage control systems/designs (single generator for pumps, internal divisions, etc). Given sufficient air group trials of Ark Royal 91, I'd think the follow on ships may do away with the double level lifts and aft round downs.

So, the RN enters WW2 with three or four of these, plus two or three building, as we should expect follow on Arks to be built somewhat faster than new designs.

For one, the lift dimensions will cancel Sea Hurricane and non-folding Seafire use. However Martlets, Corsairs, Hellcats, Tarpons and even post-war Skyraiders would fit on the original lift dims, provided weights are permissible.

Assuming a fleet air defence fighter is available, with radar, the larger CAG may counter the loss of deck armour in the Mediterranean. Though the bomber do get through, as below.

However in the Pacific, the larger CAG will need a lot of fuel and space for maintenance and parts, so Ark may be pressed for space for endurance.

These videos shows off the ship nicely.

Some info here http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/Ark_Royal2.html

 

[Admiral Beez]

Not sure if we can swing this in the Treaties, but can we scrap Eagle, Hermes and Argus and get an eighth Ark Royal?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

First thing that springs to mind is that Illustrious and Formidable don't survive their maulings in the Mediterranean. An Ark Royal could not have survived what they endured, they'd be as combustible as the US Yorktowns. An Audacious/Essex class analogue would probably be started by 1943 due to a lack of actual fleet carriers liable to survive the war.

 

[Admiral Beez]

First thing that springs to mind is that Illustrious and Formidable don't survive their maulings in the Mediterranean

I agree. Ark's only hope is that the significantly larger CAG keeps the carrier safe. Of course, we first need a larger CAG of capable fighters vs. the greater likelihood of half empty hangars of obsolete types due to lack of focus on aircraft performance vs. land based air power, insufficient aircraft and personnel.

Next, we need advancements in Naval Fighter Direction. http://ethw.org/The_Beginnings_of_N..._Chapter_5_of_Radar_and_the_Fighter_Directors

 

[fastmongrel]

In the early years of the war the FAA barely had enough aircraft to send Ark Royal to sea with a full complement. iirc Illustrious had every single Swordfish available in the Med when the attack on Taranto took place. You need to sort out the Air Ministry first before you can have 6 Arks.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I think implicit in a decision to build six more Ark Royals would have been a commitment to provide sufficient aircraft to fill their hangers. The question then becomes what aircraft? If it's still the same mix of Swordfish, Skua and Sea Gladiators then the ships die quickly. At a minimum they would need fully navalised Sea Hurricanes. Folding wings would be essential otherwise they'd never fit on the Aircraft Elevators. Add if Fulmars as Scout/Dive Bombers with a decent bomb load and hopefully a monoplane torpedo bomber and they would be some of the most effective carriers in the world. This all mean freeing the Fleet Air Arm from RAF control much earlier, no later than 1934.

 

[Astrodragon]

First thing that springs to mind is that Illustrious and Formidable don't survive their maulings in the Mediterranean. An Ark Royal could not have survived what they endured, they'd be as combustible as the US Yorktowns. An Audacious/Essex class analogue would probably be started by 1943 due to a lack of actual fleet carriers liable to survive the war.

Not necessarily the case.
The bombs that hit Illustrious basically missed the armoured part of the deck. What saved her was her robust construction, which was designed to let her survive significant damage.
We can certainly do this with an Ark Royal-type design, indeed as follow-on carriers would be looking at North Sea/Med ops, such construction, even without the armoured roof hanger, would be mandated.
And a larger air group would lead us to expect less hits.

As to the rest of it - been there, done that

 

[Astrodragon]

In the early years of the war the FAA barely had enough aircraft to send Ark Royal to sea with a full complement. iirc Illustrious had every single Swordfish available in the Med when the attack on Taranto took place. You need to sort out the Air Ministry first before you can have 6 Arks.

"I'm terribly sorry, Minister, but it seems the squadron of bombers we sent to attack a target in the Thames Estuary seem to have destroyed the Air Ministry by accident."

 

[fastmongrel]

"I'm terribly sorry, Minister, but it seems the squadron of bombers we sent to attack a target in the Thames Estuary seem to have destroyed the Air Ministry by accident."

These things happen in war, carry on old boy

 

[hipper]

First thing that springs to mind is that Illustrious and Formidable don't survive their maulings in the Mediterranean. An Ark Royal could not have survived what they endured, they'd be as combustible as the US Yorktowns. An Audacious/Essex class analogue would probably be started by 1943 due to a lack of actual fleet carriers liable to survive the war.

they would not be as Combustable as an Essex given the Extreme petrol storage precautions, but agree they would probably not have survived.

 

[sonofpegasus]

How about an armored flight deck but without the heavy side amour, a sort of hybrid AFD. I have always wondered whether there were any advantages in having a double hanger design where the armoured deck was the floor of the upper hanger. This would allow side elevators and more openings into the upper hanger and keep the weight as low as possible. whilst having a fully enclosed lowe hanger and hurricane bow for all weather and all ocean's operations.

 

[Astrodragon]

How about an armored flight deck but without the heavy side amour, a sort of hybrid AFD. I have always wondered whether there were any advantages in having a double hanger design where the armoured deck was the floor of the upper hanger. This would allow side elevators and more openings into the upper hanger and keep the weight as low as possible. whilst having a fully enclosed lowe hanger and hurricane bow for all weather and all ocean's operations.

So rather like OTL Ark Royal...
Which was an armoured carrier, just not on the upper hanger roof (please note, none of the OTL carriers had an armoured flight deck).

But yes, the most effective option would be to armour the lower hanger floor (lower down, so far less stability issues),make the flight deck stronmg enough to act as a burster, and assume the hanger gets trashed and stock up on replacement kit. Althought OTL hits into the hanger were handled pretty well by the fire curtains and sprays.

It's worth a look at how hard Illustrious was hit. Pretty much all the bombs missed the armour, and she survived the worst bomb damage any carrier in WW2 took.

 

[Astrodragon]

they would not be as Combustable as an Essex given the Extreme petrol storage precautions, but agree they would probably not have survived.

I'd argue they would have survived.

And there was no comparison between the RN petrol storage precautions and the USN ones.Even when Ark whipped after being torpedoed, there was no leakage from the petrol tanks. The drawback was such secure stowage reduced the amount of fuel that could be carried.

 

[sonofpegasus]

If The RN were to have a light bulb moment and have a half dozen 'Sangamon' class oiler/escort carriers built then they could be used to feed aircraft and fuel to the fleet carriers, as well as provide their own CAP for the fleet train. This would be particularly useful in the Pacific. Further have the Board of Admiralty be less worried about being seen to break the spirit of the Naval Treaties and order all three of the Unicorn class from the outset as fleet auxiliaries. If these could be built in Civilian yards to civil scantlings then they might be ready earlier and inspire a follow on class of light fleet carriers using the same basic structure, just optimized for operations rather than as maintenance carriers. The Sangamon's could operate about 30 aircraft and the original Unicorn about 35, so our Fleet Unicorn could well operate 2/3 of an Ark Royal air group so say 48 aircraft. Now I know I am wanking this but depending on how many survive till then, imagine the British Pacific Fleet fielding up to 6 Ark Royal's, Three Unicorn Repair carriers, Six Sangamon's and ever increasing numbers of Light Fleet Unicorns!!

 

[Astrodragon]

It would have been nice, but would be pretty ASB. The RN never considered major action in the Pacific because they didn't really have anything there to protect. They were looking at fighting in the South China Sea and north, supplied from Singapore, so didn't really need such a level of support.Would have been nice, but more carriers would have been more useful.
Now with a little more support, and less intransigence by the AM, they could have started to build the Trade Protection Carriers earlier, probably around 36-7.

 

[hipper]

I'd argue they would have survived.

And there was no comparison between the RN petrol storage precautions and the USN ones.Even when Ark whipped after being torpedoed, there was no leakage from the petrol tanks. The drawback was such secure stowage reduced the amount of fuel that could be carried.

I was thinking about bombs penetrating the engine rooms rather than petrol fumes exploding. Putting the armour on the hanger deck means one al least of the bombs will penetrate deeper.

 

[Astrodragon]

I was thinking about bombs penetrating the engine rooms rather than petrol fumes exploding. Putting the armour on the hanger deck means one al least of the bombs will penetrate deeper.

That's the whole point of making the flight deck a burster. The bombs are initiated, and go off in the hanger. They wreck part of the hanger, but you have fire curtains and sprays. Then the heavy floor armour protects engine rooms and magazines.

 

[Admiral Beez]

But yes, the most effective option would be to armour the lower hanger floor (lower down, so far less stability issues),

Wasn't that where OTL's Ark Royal was armoured?

https://namu.wiki/w/파일:hms ark royal-cross-light.jpg

As a contrast, here's the Illustrious armour scheme in red. Too bad I can't find a colourized Ark cutaway.

 

[Some Bloke]

@Astrodragon any chance of a continuation/reboot of The Whale?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder if Ark Royal would have been able to hang disassembled aircraft from the rafters like the Illustrious class?

from Roberts, British Warships of the 2nd WW.