Sino-German Alliance with Allies & Soviet vs Japan 1945

[blackadam]

There will be no WWII, however, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and invasion of Southeast Asia, in Europe, Hitler hated the Japanese suddenly that there was a threat yellow. The leading countries Europe (Nazi, UK, France) through strategic aid to Chiang Kai-shek and go to war with Japan. In the context of Japan occupied the Southeast Asian countries as well as Manchuria. The Soviet Union and the United States also quick to jump into the fight.
This scenario does not have nuclear weapons, but it will have all conventional weapons and wonder weapons of the German is produced and improvement.

I think, the Western countries, Germany, the United States they hate each other. However, this scenario they will jointly yellow race against aggressive

In this scenario Germany, the Soviet Union and China will play a bigger role. Although the United States wants revenge but they keep a distance to take advantage of manpower and weapons of the three leading countries in the fight against Japan

Germany will move conventional weapons such as Panther, Tiger II by Soviet Union train (in this scenario, the Soviet-German treaty continues to be implemented) U-boat will transport the modern weapons such as Me-262, V-2, Stalin wanted the Kuril Islands and Germany want Qingdao (Were occupied by Japan during WWI), while the United States, Britain, France wants the Philippines, Indochina, and Singapore are released.

Belligerents

China[a]

• with Foreign support
• 
  United States (1941–45)
• Soviet Union (1937–41,45)
• British Empire, France (1942–45)
• Germany (1933-1945)

Japan with Collaborator support

• Nanjing Government (1940–45)
• 
  Manchukuo (1932–45)
• 
  Mengjiang (1936–45)
• Provisional Government (1937–40)
• 
  Reformed Government (1937–40)
• East Hebei (1937–38)

 

[blackadam]

Japan will fight to the death or surrender?

We already know, Japan has an warship technology and best flight early 1940. However, in high-tech war in 1945, Japan is outdated
Their Radar virtually inactive and really outdated. See the Battle of Midway, Leyte
The best of their aircraft as zero, ki-84, n1k (mostly on paper) consecutive losses. Example: Great Marianas Turkey Shoot
Anti-submarine warfare Japan is worst in WWII, Allied submarines had closed the economy of Japan.
The warships and submarines of them are huge but inefficient, as Yamato, I-400.

Japan will do with the German and Soviet armies

They have the best tank Tiger II in 1945, Panther, IS-2, T-34-85
They have the best WWII airplane Me-262, Fw190, BF109, I-152, Ju-88, IL-2, Yak-3/9, L-5/7. At sea they must face the U-boat submarine. The Germans will be wise to not directly face of their warships, but they know the Japanese anti-submarine capability is very poor.
Unlike the Japanese navy, army Japan is poor and backward, they only Banzai vs Blitzkrieg tactics, Deep Battle

To attack the territory of Japan, the Soviet Union provided the air base for the Ho-229 aircraft, Ho-18. Also the Allied nations will provide the P-51D and B-29/17/24 to support the bombing of Japan (as one part of a campaign of revenge, but still avoid sending troops and navy joined the battle)

U-boat will carry out the attack by U-boat V-2 warhead with dirt. Ho-229 will actually invisible to radar obsolescence of Japan, and still using dirty bombs, the Soviets and Germans are not ethical.

 

[blackadam]

mixture of German infantry and the Soviet Union was the world's best in terms of both quality and quantity, I'm imagining a battle they advance in Nanjing or Manchu. While their (japan) navies grappling with the United States Navy, the United Kingdom and France in Southeast Asia
Navy Japanese most likely here, but the bombing broke factories, shipping sunk will break their industry (remember Japan really do not have an effective anti-submarine technology, Germany has technology AIP submarines and stealth). Japan depends on the resources and external fuel

 

[Sharunaku]

With no Germany to tie down Soviets, the Kwantung Army would not be able to carry on an all-out attack in China, as they'll be certainly fighting a two-front war. The whatever incident that might lead to war ITTL would end like the Triple Intervention.

 

[blackadam]

With no Germany to tie down Soviets, the Kwantung Army would not be able to carry on an all-out attack in China, as they'll be certainly fighting a two-front war. The whatever incident that might lead to war ITTL would end like the Triple Intervention.

I do not understand your attention, however infantry Japan is a joke with mixed infantry China, Russia, Mongolia and Germany


In fact the Japanese army did not occupy the whole of China, they get bogged down in China, in addition they lost to the Soviet Union twice in the previous battle (1939 & 1945)

 

[Sharunaku]

I do not understand your attention, however infantry Japan is a joke with mixed infantry China, Russia, Mongolia and Germany


In fact the Japanese army did not occupy the whole of China, they get bogged down in China, in addition they lost to the Soviet Union twice in the previous battle (1939 & 1945)

I mean there would be no war if Germany didn't support Japan, because Japan needed Germany to distract USSR.

 

[mlp]

What are these posts?
Part of an attempted TL? A series of questions? A proposed and extended hypothesis?
Please define what this thread is before you proceed, thanks.

 

[Alex1guy]

Couple points:

-Why is Hitler suddenly turning on Japan in such a dramatic fashion? Germany had little interest in anything going on in the Pacific? Germany sure as shit ain't getting colonies when it would be Western Navies leading the show.

-Why is the UK and France co-operating with the Nazis in regards to anything? They didn't trust Hitler as far as they could throw him.

-The circumstances leading up to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor have been butterflied. Japan was facing a massive oil and resource embargo from the United States thanks to it's aggressive actions in China, followed by it's takeover of French Indo-China, something that isn't happening here because France (apparently) hasn't been defeated in the Battle of France, thus delaying Japans move south against the Dutch East Indies. From what you are proposing, it would seem that Japan is attacking the USA, Britain and France, none of whom are previously distracted or engaged in any other theaters, at the same time. This is a monumentally stupid move, too stupid for even Japan's militarist wackos.

-You seem to think that the USA would hold back, why is it doing this? You have posited that it has just been attacked on it's own soil, why would it's response be any different from what happened in real life (AKA the USA became pissed off and ground Japan into a pulp over a period of four years, without the European theater this is probably going to be faster, especially with Britain and France in the picture.

-In the event of such a dogpile on Japan, the weapons you are bringing up like the V2 and Tiger tank were 1) Not invented yet 2) Not suitable for fighting in the Pacific 3) Products of the German conquest of Europe thanks to gratuitous slave labor and plundering of European resources and funding. They don't just pop out of nowhere.

Long and the short of it, this scenario makes no sense what so ever, ignores numerous historical and political factors at play. It seems you want to know thought what would happen in the impossible situation where there USSR, USA, UK France and Nazi Germany all of a sudden decided to join with China against Japan. The answer should really be a no brainer.

 

[blackadam]

Couple points:

-Why is Hitler suddenly turning on Japan in such a dramatic fashion? Germany had little interest in anything going on in the Pacific? Germany sure as shit ain't getting colonies when it would be Western Navies leading the show.

-Why is the UK and France co-operating with the Nazis in regards to anything? They didn't trust Hitler as far as they could throw him.

-The circumstances leading up to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor have been butterflied. Japan was facing a massive oil and resource embargo from the United States thanks to it's aggressive actions in China, followed by it's takeover of French Indo-China, something that isn't happening here because France (apparently) hasn't been defeated in the Battle of France, thus delaying Japans move south against the Dutch East Indies. From what you are proposing, it would seem that Japan is attacking the USA, Britain and France, none of whom are previously distracted or engaged in any other theaters, at the same time. This is a monumentally stupid move, too stupid for even Japan's militarist wackos.

-You seem to think that the USA would hold back, why is it doing this? You have posited that it has just been attacked on it's own soil, why would it's response be any different from what happened in real life (AKA the USA became pissed off and ground Japan into a pulp over a period of four years, without the European theater this is probably going to be faster, especially with Britain and France in the picture.

-In the event of such a dogpile on Japan, the weapons you are bringing up like the V2 and Tiger tank were 1) Not invented yet 2) Not suitable for fighting in the Pacific 3) Products of the German conquest of Europe thanks to gratuitous slave labor and plundering of European resources and funding. They don't just pop out of nowhere.

Long and the short of it, this scenario makes no sense what so ever, ignores numerous historical and political factors at play. It seems you want to know thought what would happen in the impossible situation where there USSR, USA, UK France and Nazi Germany all of a sudden decided to join with China against Japan. The answer should really be a no brainer.

Indochina, Singapore, the Philippines is threatened by Japan, however, the United States, Britain and France did not want a war with Japan comprehensively in this scenario, they want to the Soviet Union and Germany they fight with Japan, the Soviet Union and Germany have big ambitions in Asia

You did not really know China has been supported by the countries listed above? Just do not directly help each other, they operate separately (UK, France, USA and Germany, Soviet Union), but they will help China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War


In this scenario they extend help and go to beat Japan

Japanese Navy in this context is not a major threat by the war occurred in the territory of China and the war in submarines (remember Japan is very poor on anti-submarine capability, the U-boat is the best submarines in WWII), in addition to the advanced technology will be developed by China's large workforce, the KMT government had a good relationship with the Nazis in history, the bombing land main and sinking shipping of Japan will contribute to breaking the economy and their industry, radar and Sonar Japan is a joke.

With the advanced technology with enormous human and geographic proximity, Germany, the USSR and China will certainly beat Japan faster than the US. The majority of Japanese industries depend on Manchuria, Korea & Indonesia, United States in the history of not paying attention to Manchuria,

Where the majority of economic resources and military service for Japan



Japan does not really mastered the whole Asia and China

 

[blackadam]

I mean there would be no war if Germany didn't support Japan, because Japan needed Germany to distract USSR.

Oh I know, it is precisely in the fact Japan was dependent on high technology from Germany as radar, radio, uranium or the high-tech weapons were sent in submarine

However, in this scenario, Japan became crazier, after the battle of Pearl Harbor
Germany and the Soviet Union would extend assistance to China

 

[Sharunaku]

Oh I know, it is precisely in the fact Japan was dependent on high technology from Germany as radar, radio, uranium or the high-tech weapons were sent in submarine

However, in this scenario, Japan became crazier, after the battle of Pearl Harbor
Germany and the Soviet Union would extend assistance to China

No, Japan would not start a full scale war in China if Germany was not allied to Japan and hostile to the Soviet Union, because they knew that if USSR attacks them when they were busy fighting in China, they will lose.

There would be no Pearl Harbor if Japan didn't occupy South East Asia, and they couldn't occupy those places without Germany defeating their colonial masters in Europe.

 

[blackadam]

No, Japan would not start a full scale war in China if Germany was not allied to Japan and hostile to the Soviet Union, because they knew that if USSR attacks them when they were busy fighting in China, they will lose.

There would be no Pearl Harbor if Japan didn't occupy South East Asia, and they couldn't occupy those places without Germany defeating their colonial masters in Europe.

You did not read my information given, Germany and the Soviet Union really help Chiang Kai-shek before 1939, Germany in 1930 seeking assistance from countries outside Europe, the Soviet Union was isolated as the only communist country, are looking to expand influence in Asia which are oppressed by European colonialism, Japan on the other hand are interested in pursuing the path to dominate the entire Asia. Japan invaded China in 1937, they intend to invade the Soviet Far East. Germany then helped modernize China's military, volunteers USSR when it arrived in China ahead of the United States, the Soviet Union in the history wanna see Japan has been mired in China, to avoid war on two fronts against Germany and Japan. In this scenario Germany would not attack the Soviet Union

Of course the base of the United States, Britain and France in Philipn, Indochina and Singapore are still in danger, fleet Japan and its allies are preparing for the big battle, although not want to escalate an scale war western countries in this context really want to see Germany, the USSR, China and Japan kill each other, but in the territory of China, Japan surely be defeated by force tanks, armored vehicles and infantry, air force they will be overwhelmed by the number and quality of Germany, China and the Soviet Union.
United States on the one hand that will help China as in history but more limited


The U-boat submarine team will do better than the US submarine fleet has done in history, when Germany in 1945 has developed technology and manufacturing large number of ships as U-480 (Submarines stealth ), U-1407 (Submarines AIP), V-2 U-boat, Ho-229, Me-262, Flettner Fl 282 ...., without being limited by the war on two fronts as historical fact.

Both surfaced and underwater rocket trials were carried out aboard U-511 during May and June 1942. German Heavy Rocket Launcher Type 41. These were mounted on wooden frames on the upper deck.
Courtesy of Kirk Steinhoff After the war, this concept led to the US and Soviet ballistic missile submarines of the 1950s.
http://www.uboataces.com/articles-rocket-uboat.shtml

After the war, Reimar Horten said he mixed charcoal dust in with the wood glue to absorb electromagnetic waves (radar), which he believed could shield the aircraft from detection by British early warning ground-based radar that operated at 20 to 30 MHz (top end of the HF band), known as Chain Home.[9] A jet-powered flying wing design such as the Horten Ho 229 will have a smaller radar cross-section to conventional contemporary twin-engine aircraft. This is because the wings blended into the fuselage and there were no large propeller disks or vertical and horizontal tail surfaces to provide a typical identifiable radar signature.[3][4]
Engineers of the Northrop-Grumman Corporation had long been interested in the Ho 229, and several of them visited the Smithsonian Museum's facility in Silver Hill, Maryland in the early 1980s to study the V3 airframe. A team of engineers from Northrop-Grumman ran electromagnetic tests on the V3's multilayer wooden center-section nose cones. The cones are three quarters of an inch (19 mm) thick and made up of thin sheets of veneer. The team concluded that there was indeed some form of conducting element in the glue, as the radar signal attenuated considerably as it passed through the cone.[3]

In early 2008, Northrop-Grumman paired up television documentary producer Michael Jorgensen, and the National Geographic Channel to produce a documentary to determine whether the Ho 229 was, in fact, the world's first true "stealth" fighter-bomber.[3] Northrop-Grumman built a full-size non-flying reproduction of the V3, constructed to match the aircraft's radar properties. After an expenditure of about US$250,000 and 2,500 man-hours, Northrop's Ho 229 reproduction was tested at the company's classified radar cross-section (RCS) test range at Tejon, California, where it was placed on a 15-meter (50 ft) articulating pole and exposed to electromagnetic energy sources from various angles, using the same three HF/VHF-boundary area frequencies in the 20–50 MHz range used by the Chain Home system in the mid-1940s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229.

 

[mlp]

You did not read my information given, Germany and the Soviet Union really help Chiang Kai-shek before 1939, Germany in 1930 seeking assistance from countries outside Europe, the Soviet Union was isolated as the only communist country, are looking to expand influence in Asia which are oppressed by European colonialism, Japan on the other hand are interested in pursuing the path to dominate the entire Asia. Japan invaded China in 1937, they intend to invade the Soviet Far East. Germany then helped modernize China's military, volunteers USSR when it arrived in China ahead of the United States, the Soviet Union in the history wanna see Japan has been mired in China, to avoid war on two fronts against Germany and Japan. In this scenario Germany would not attack the Soviet Union

Of course the base of the United States, Britain and France in Philipn, Indochina and Singapore are still in danger, fleet Japan and its allies are preparing for the big battle, although not want to escalate an scale war western countries in this context really want to see Germany, the USSR, China and Japan kill each other, but in the territory of China, Japan surely be defeated by force tanks, armored vehicles and infantry, air force they will be overwhelmed by the number and quality of Germany, China and the Soviet Union.
United States on the one hand that will help China as in history but more limited


The U-boat submarine team will do better than the US submarine fleet has done in history, when Germany in 1945 has developed technology and manufacturing large number of ships as U-480 (Submarines stealth ), U-1407 (Submarines AIP) without being limited by the war on two fronts as historical fact.

Not true. The belligerent words for a "eight-pointed roof" or whatnot was only after their invasion of the whole of Southeast Asia. Their sole objective for centuries was China. They only turned to other sources after they were forced to a stalemate.

Furthermore, why is Germany willing to spare Russia? Germany's prime objective was the vast expanse of Europe, most of which in the east was Russia; Germany has more than enough reasons to allow Japan to take over Asia.

 

[Das_Colonel]

 

[blackadam]

Not true. The belligerent words for a "eight-pointed roof" or whatnot was only after their invasion of the whole of Southeast Asia. Their sole objective for centuries was China. They only turned to other sources after they were forced to a stalemate.

Furthermore, why is Germany willing to spare Russia? Germany's prime objective was the vast expanse of Europe, most of which in the east was Russia; Germany has more than enough reasons to allow Japan to take over Asia.

In this context Germany does not want war on two fronts with Britain, France and Russia

 

[Sharunaku]

You did not read my information given, Germany and the Soviet Union really help Chiang Kai-shek before 1939, Germany in 1930 seeking assistance from countries outside Europe, the Soviet Union was isolated as the only communist country, are looking to expand influence in Asia which are oppressed by European colonialism, Japan on the other hand are interested in pursuing the path to dominate the entire Asia. Japan invaded China in 1937, they intend to invade the Soviet Far East. Germany then helped modernize China's military, volunteers USSR when it arrived in China ahead of the United States, the Soviet Union in the history wanna see Japan has been mired in China, to avoid war on two fronts against Germany and Japan. In this scenario Germany would not attack the Soviet Union.

1. That is, of course, Japan, then China
2. Why?

In this context Germany does not want war on two fronts with Britain, France and Russia

So, they should ally with a country that can keep USSR in check, not someone buddy-buddy with them.

 

[mlp]

In this context Germany does not want war on two fronts with Britain, France and Russia

My good sir, you are not making sense right now. Come back tomorrow.

 

[Napoleon IV]

Exactly what is going on here?

This situation makes no sense.

 

[blackadam]

Exactly what is going on here?

This situation makes no sense.

Germany and the Soviet Union wanted a part of the territory of China and Japan, China want to beat Japan. The Allies simply want to see their opponents kill each other

 

[mlp]

I'll partly agree with you by stating this:
Both China and Japan were ruled by fascists. It was a war of one fascist against another. It was inevitable however that China was not in the offensive, thus proving that Japan was the more effective power of the Pacific - which meant that it was Japan, not China, who endangered the colonies of western powers. This was why there was no reason for America to support the Japanese; this was why Germany allied with the Japanese. And this fact cannot change with your POD.