Should US have declared war on Iran during the hostage crisis?

ccdsah

Donor
I don't get this collective guilt thing you have going on. The population of Iran is not its government officials or military, and the same is true for most places. You want to obliterate and give cancer to innocent people for the "crime" of living in a certain location. That makes no sense whatsoever.

You can't really destroy/ punish a state without hurting its citizens. Look at North Korea with just economic sanctions and its party leaders are doing great even if the whole country is in ruin; However a major conflict/ invasion would see the removal of said leaders.
Iran (state) should have been made to pay by UN for breaching international diplomatic rules. Releasing the hostages and paying for damages would have been sufficient if Iran would have been willing to play ball. If not, sorry you're fracking with UN at your own risk.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
You can't really destroy/ punish a state without hurting its citizens. Look at North Korea with just economic sanctions and its party leaders are doing great even if the whole country is in ruin; However a major conflict/ invasion would see the removal of said leaders.
Iran (state) should have been made to pay by UN for breaching international diplomatic rules. Releasing the hostages and paying for damages would have been sufficient if Iran would have been willing to play ball. If not, sorry you're fracking with UN at your own risk.

So if Nicaragua nuked the United States in regards to its International Cour of Justice conviction in 1986 that it failed to accord to, that'd be justifiable?
 
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ccdsah

Donor
This is insane.

1. Cops do not kill everyone in a block because someone has committed a crime, but you are calling for the nuclear warfare because of a few hostages

2. The Iranians would almost certainly win a case under international law and the judge would order the nuking of the USA if either party was to be nuked! You cannot overthrow a democratic government and then be a party to mass torture, theft and murder and expect your "embassy" to be sacrosanct. That this is what had previously happened might be shocking news to you, but only reflects the failure of the US media and educational system. Read eg


This is not opinion but historical fact: the USA's breaches of international law against Iran were enormous, caused huge suffering, and preceded the hostage crisis.

Were the breaches of the US documented at the UN with a formal resolution? And also you can't right a wrong with another wrong...
 

ccdsah

Donor
So if Nicaragua nuked the United States in regards to its International Criminal Court conviction in 1986 that it failed to accord to, that'd be justifiable?
Nope, but UN should really have the power to make even a superpower like US comply with its decisions
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
Nope, but UN should really have the power to make even a superpower like US comply with its decisions

But the war crimes that the U.S. committed were much more severe violations of international law than what Iran did in the Hostage Crisis. If decimating Iran in a total war is considered justified for the Hostage Crisis, decimating the United States in a total war would be even more justified for Nicaragua.
 
And also you can't right a wrong with another wrong...

That is EXACTLY what you are fucking proposing! Or am I so deluded to think that bombing people isn't "the right thing to do". Let me make this perfectly clear. WAR IS NOT A GAME. War costs lives, war costs money, war ruins countries. I don't know what you think war is, but it is not an elegant or righteous solution. It should be avoided wherever possible. It involves killing people, for what? To make a stand in this case for international law? The very law that the US is guilty of breaking on a regular basis? Buddy, the world ain't black and white and believe it or not, the USA aren't always the good guys.
 
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ccdsah

Donor
But the war crimes that the U.S. committed were much more severe violations of international law than what Iran did in the Hostage Crisis. If decimating Iran in a total war is considered justified for the Hostage Crisis, decimating the United States in a total war would be even more justified for Nicaragua.
Nope, that would be the last resort solution for a nation not complying with UN decisions. If Iran, US or whatever country that breaches UN rules takes the right steps to rectify the situation and pays damages then UN would not resort to force... Until UN gets the power/legitimacy it needs the world will continue to be a really fracked up place...
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
Nope, that would be the last resort solution for a nation not complying with UN decisions. If Iran, US or whatever country that breaches UN rules takes the right steps to rectify the situation and pays damages then UN would not resort to force... Until UN gets the power/legitimacy it needs the world will continue to be a really fracked up place...

The U.S. didn't pay damages or even issue an apology, and actively blocked legislation in the United Nations to pay reparations to Nicaragua. Your point is completely moot.
 
Nope, that would be the last resort solution for a nation not complying with UN decisions. If Iran, US or whatever country that breaches UN rules takes the right steps to rectify the situation and pays damages then UN would not resort to force... Until UN gets the power/legitimacy it needs the world will continue to be a really fracked up place...

So listen or we bomb you? That's your solution? Actually I take it all back, it's flawless. Run for President.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Were the breaches of the US documented at the UN with a formal resolution?

Does it matter to anyone sane? Expecting the world to accept genocide against people whose government the USA had overthrown, for a trivial reason, because there was no UN resolution condemning said overthrowing (which the US as a sec council member could block) is crazy. Hitler and Pol Pot would point at you and laugh.

And also you can't right a wrong with another wrong...

Umm, no you can't. Because if the action will right the original wrong and is not disproportionate it is not a wrong. And I have to say that grabbing US hostages to prevent US interference in the overthrow of a US installed dictator seems pretty moderate to me - I mean, Luke Skywalker actually killed people when he destroyed the Death Star and most people agree that was ok. And that those blue guys with the tails were justified in killing US "contractors" to save the rainforests or rare shrubs or whatever they were saving, so evaluated objectively, I can't really see the Iranian hostage takers as "Nuke them from orbit" level evil.

Also: you do realize this argument is hypocritical on your part??? And that what you are proposing is Hitler Level Evil? Sometimes when people are All Down On Adolf, I really wonder how large a percentage of humanity - especially in the USA - is actually more evil and less strategically competent than he was. I really can't see ccdsah as less evil than Adolf, and his reasons for landing the USA in hell - which in the longterm his war plans would do - are a lot less compelling than Hitler's for invading Russia.
 
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No, the USA shouldn't have declared war... because that would have been too big of a commitment... it would have set on a course of having to actually conquer the place, in the face of a hostile population that was largely giddy with happiness over Khomeini's takeover. At most, US forces could have bombed selective targets like oil refineries, but that was unlikely to have given the students any reason to give in. The only alternate-history way to end the crisis would be for Khomeini to be convinced that he would have to tell the students to give up the hostages... and it's not clear if he was ever willing to do that. In the end, it took the Iran/Iraq war to make the hostages... unnecessary...
 
Of course it is and it was back then too. It just has to be willing to use nukes, chemical and or biological warfare, even in a tactical way. US failures in Korea, Vietnam, and Afganistan are related to its unwillingness to apply total war tactics... You can't fight a war with the hands tied behind your back if you want to obtain total victory. Still, even without putting assets on the ground and even using its nuclear, chemical or biological capabilities I can see US fracking over Iran and reducing its infrastructure to pre-medieval levels using just air and naval assets...

The use of the word 'fracking' suggests that you are a relatively young man grown up on Battlestar Galactica, and only a distant historical knowledge of the Iranian hostage crisis, Vietnam, Korea and the mythos which has grown up around WWII.

From a different vantage point, I see your views as rather unnecessarily bloodthirsty.

First, while you seem to be an advocate of 'total war tactics', I would suggest that for the most part, 'total war' is a very rare thing in history. The vast majority of wars involve fairly limited commitments by one side or the other, sometimes by both sides.

Total wars are generally counterproductive. They are extremely destructive of the economy and society of the total war society, even when they win. At the very least, expect radical social changes, major economic dislocations. Victory is often pyrhic - World War I and II put paid to the British, French, Dutch, Belgian, Austrian, Ottoman and Russian Empires. The United States came out well in both wars, particularly the second, because it's commitments were almost peripheral in both cases.

No society commits to total warfare unless its crucial interests or survival are at stake. End of story.

A nation which commits to limited wars does so on a cost/benefit basis. ie, the scale of its commitment has to be commensurate with the benefits it anticipates. There's all sorts of ways to lose a war like that, ranging from the enemy outspending you, to cutting your losses when the cost exceeds the benefit, to spending yourself into ruin or prejudicing your overall position pursuing a worthless victory.

The notion that we didn't try hard enough, or fought with one hand tied behind our back in Korea, Vietnam or Afghanistan is mythical, and amounts to 'stab in the back' folklore. It's just nonsense.

The notion of declaring war on Iran in this circumstance is ill advised under the circumstances for a number of reasons, the proportionality of response and cost benefit is just the beginning. There is, for instance, the fact that such a war would almost certainly have endangered its objectives - the hostages might well have been killed or injured. The US was not at the time prepared to go to war, physically or economically. Finally, the outcomes of the war would almost certainly have been massively counterproductive, from destabilizing the entire region to inviting soviet domination.

It's all very fine to flex muscles, strut and talk tough. But... not every problem is a nail, and not every solution is a hammer.
 
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amphibulous

Banned
The use of the word 'fracking' suggests that you are a relatively young man grown up on Battlestar Galactica, and only a distant historical knowledge of the Iranian hostage crisis, Vietnam, Korea and the mythos which has grown up around WWII.

...Total wars are generally counterproductive. They are extremely destructive of the economy and society of the total war society, even when they win. At the very least, expect radical social changes, major economic dislocations. Victory is often pyrhic

..No society commits to total warfare unless its crucial interests or survival are at stake. End of story.

A nation which commits to limited wars does so on a cost/benefit basis. ie, the scale of its commitment has to be commensurate with the benefits it anticipates.

Ironically, anyone who actually paid attention during BSG would have a pretty good sense of the above...
 
The use of the word 'fracking' suggests that you are a relatively young man grown up on Battlestar Galactica, and only a distant historical knowledge of the Iranian hostage crisis, Vietnam, Korea and the mythos which has grown up around WWII.

From a different vantage point, I see your views as rather unnecessarily bloodthirsty.

First, while you seem to be an advocate of 'total war tactics', I would suggest that for the most part, 'total war' is a very rare thing in history. The vast majority of wars involve fairly limited commitments by one side or the other, sometimes by both sides.

Total wars are generally counterproductive. They are extremely destructive of the economy and society of the total war society, even when they win. At the very least, expect radical social changes, major economic dislocations. Victory is often pyrhic - World War I and II put paid to the British, French, Dutch, Belgian, Austrian, Ottoman and Russian Empires. The United States came out well in both wars, particularly the second, because it's commitments were almost peripheral in both cases.

No society commits to total warfare unless its crucial interests or survival are at stake. End of story.

A nation which commits to limited wars does so on a cost/benefit basis. ie, the scale of its commitment has to be commensurate with the benefits it anticipates. There's all sorts of ways to lose a war like that, ranging from the enemy outspending you, to cutting your losses when the cost exceeds the benefit, to spending yourself into ruin or prejudicing your overall position pursuing a worthless victory.

The notion that we didn't try hard enough, or fought with one hand tied behind our back in Korea, Vietnam or Afghanistan is mythical, and amounts to 'stab in the back' folklore. It's just nonsense.

The notion of declaring war on Iran in this circumstance is ill advised under the circumstances for a number of reasons, the proportionality of response and cost benefit is just the beginning. There is, for instance, the fact that such a war would almost certainly have endangered its objectives - the hostages might well have been killed or injured. The US was not at the time prepared to go to war, physically or economically. Finally, the outcomes of the war would almost certainly have been massively counterproductive, from destabilizing the entire region to inviting soviet domination.

It's all very fine to flex muscles, strut and talk tough. But... not every problem is a nail, and not every solution is a hammer.

Couldn't agree more.

I'd describe ccdsah's views as the Paradox/Civilization syndrome, except it has existed much longer than that (the German generals who talked about 'stab in the back' were suffering from a variant of it.

Basically the P/C syndrome is a mindest which divorces the way a nation fights a war with the state of its society. Max Hastings summed it up best when he commented that, of course, Patton and Montgomery etc..., could have won the Second World War earlier if they had behaved like Waffen-SS generals. The problem is that the society they were operating in would never have stomached it. The German generals in World War I suffered from a classic case of P/C syndrome; they were basically willing to literally destroy their own country in order to achieve military victory and never recognized that defeat at home=defeat on battlefield.

The course ccdsah is advocating might, I repeat might, have been considered in the 1940s US. But even then it would most likely not sit very comfortably, especially once the war was over and heads had cooled. The idea that the post-Vietnam United States would embark on such a course is impossible IMHO.

teg
 

amphibulous

Banned
No, the USA shouldn't have declared war... because that would have been too big of a commitment... it would have set on a course of having to actually conquer the place, in the face of a hostile population that was largely giddy with happiness over Khomeini's takeover. At most, US forces could have bombed selective targets like oil refineries, but that was unlikely to have given the students any reason to give in.

They'd have said that they were putting hostages in place at likely targets, then taken a couple of people to a bombed site, thrown a grenade on them and said "Look what you did."

The real lesson is: "Frakking around in other peoples' countries is dangerous. Don't expect them to treat people propping up a puppet regime to be treated as inviolate just because you call them diplomats."
 
The real lesson is: "Frakking around in other peoples' countries is dangerous. Don't expect them to treat people propping up a puppet regime to be treated as inviolate just because you call them diplomats."

well, assaulting an embassy and holding the diplomats for ransom is a disturbing and disgusting act, and Khomeini should have ordered them to be released immediately. The sanctity of an embassy is one of the few things that nearly every nation on earth regards as absolute. That said, the US declaring war wouldn't have convinced anyone in Iran to release them. The nation had pretty much gone around the bend in their giddy joy over getting rid of the Shah, and were happily installing a theocracy that would oppress them about the same. When an entire nation is bent on such a course, outside pressure isn't going to do much...
 

amphibulous

Banned
well, assaulting an embassy and holding the diplomats for ransom is a disturbing and disgusting act

I think you skipped the part of twentieth century history where the USA overthrew democracy in Iran, installed a dictator, helped him murder and torture people, and accepted billions of stolen dollars? Because holding a few of the people responsible for that hostage until you get a small part of the stolen money back and a promise not to do more Krazy Nazi Stuff actually seems quite moderate.

The nation had pretty much gone around the bend in their giddy joy over getting rid of the Shah, and were happily installing a theocracy

You might want to read a history book: there was an interim president before the theocracy, whose government collapses partly because of documents retrieved from the embassy. And you might call seizing the hostages "going around the bend" but can you justify this? Morally, it seems easily justified - you can't use an embassy as a base for a coup and running a puppet regime and still seriously claim the people there are diplomats. And practically, it blocked US action and got the Iranians some of the money the US had stolen back. More importantly for the theocratic hostage takers, it helped them oust the potential democrats. So on the whole what they did was eminently sane.
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Occuppying an embassy which is technically US territory, and taking innocent civilians hostage can be seen as an act of war. Should the US have declared war and use naval and airforce assets to reduce Iran to rubble? Maybe even nukes? How would the war have been fought?

What if they occupy the Soviet embassy instead? I'm pretty sure the soviets would have invaded...

What if (my favorite scenario) they occupy both embassies (Soviet and US) ? Can we see a joint US and Soviet intervention in Iran?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis#Prelude

At the time the desire to go in and kick @$$ was pretty high. (Un?)fortunately the U.S. was at just about its lowest point of military readiness since prior to the Korean War. The "hollow military" was pretty much the truth. The U.S. had vast numbers of nukes and a pretty solid Navy, although it was at a low point as well, but the ground forces were hurtin' for certain.

The M1 was just coming out of the factory (and this was the original with the 105mm gun) and had not yet reached the active force, the Bradley was two years away, and most of the wizz-bang gear that is now taken for granted wasn't ready for prime time. Combined with the equipment situation, the military was really screwed up. Vietnam had caused untold damage to the force and the professional military that now exists was just barely forming. There were still drug issues, discipline issues, and overall respect for the forces was at close to, if not at, an all time low. To say it would have been a poor time to start a elective war would be something of an understatement.

The U.S. could have defeated Iran, but at far greater cost than anyone at the time imagined (and at vastly more cost than would be the case today).
 

Robert

Banned
Carter had created the hostage situation by first removing an authoritarian U.S. ally, and replacing him with an radically Anti-American government. To admit to this mistake was something Carter would never do, which is one of the main reasons he chose to do nothing until April, five months after the invasion of our embassy. It was only when he feared losing the New York Primary to Ted Kennedy that he took military action, but had so cut back on defense in the previous four years that the Strike Force was not provided with what was needed to carry out it's mission.

Further, it wasn't until the Russians invaded Afghanistan did Carter see the Soviet threat for what it was. He created the worst of all worlds by removing the Shah and giving the Communist free reign in Central Asia, and an opportunity to align itself with the Ayatollah, albeit tacitly, against the United States. This result of Liberal Guilt and the faux principle of "Human Rights", which in the 1970s seemed to seem abandoning whole countries to the tender mercies of the radical left, only led to humiliation, and the terrorism that we confront today.
 
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