Short AHQ: 8mm Mauser for UK post-1940-42 Entente victory?

Hi everyone,

I've read that prior to WW2, the British intended to move over from .303 to 8mm (7.92mm) Mauser caliber, which is exemplified by the purchase of the BESA machinegun and various developments late in the war.
However, by the time the war ended, the choice of the future caliber was mostly tied to the US decision, as it was expected that the Americans would be the main supplier in WW3 and therefore that ammunition should be standardized according to the US's choice.

However, what would the UK have done if the Entente had succeeded in defending the French border in the Spring/Summer of 1940 and had then defeated Germany by early 42 at the latest (which seems to be the main consensus in AH following such a POD)?

With such an early victory, it is dubious that the US would get to have such a major role in European geopolitics that ammunition caliber should be chosen according to its wishes.

First of all because the US likely would have remained neutral (but would have supplied the Entente with various equipment) during the war and wouldn't have had to send soldiers to the continent, but also because Europe would have been in far better shape following the war, and in a good position to deter any Soviet action (not that the Soviets would be all that interested in pushing beyond "liberating" German-occupied Western Poland and Czechoslovakia, with the latter probably remaining independent.

Therefore, it would seem more logical to me that the British would go for 8mm Mauser as intended as that was still a very common and good caliber in Europe (used IIRC by Germany, the Czechoslovaks, Poland, Spain, maybe Yugoslavia).

What are your thoughts on this question?
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I've wondered why they went with the .303 with the Bren. If you have been considering a rimless cartridge for several decades, shouldn't you jump at the chance to adopt the 8 x 57, or better the 7 x 57, with the new weapon?
Britain could have converted P14's to 7 x 57 any time between 1920 and 1935. The British could have looked into Czech ZH-29 adoption, or asked for submissions from British and foreign firms for semi-auto guns.
 
I've wondered why they went with the .303 with the Bren. If you have been considering a rimless cartridge for several decades, shouldn't you jump at the chance to adopt the 8 x 57, or better the 7 x 57, with the new weapon?
Britain could have converted P14's to 7 x 57 any time between 1920 and 1935. The British could have looked into Czech ZH-29 adoption, or asked for submissions from British and foreign firms for semi-auto guns.
They probably wanted their rifles and LMG's to fire the same ammunition and didn't want to deal with (and or couldn't afford ?) replacing or modifying their rifles to use a new round ?
 
I've always been baffled as to why 7.5 French was not the go to. If Britain's fighting on the Continent it's going to be in France. May as well integrate logistics.
 
I've always been baffled as to why 7.5 French was not the go to.
Where the French actually open and willing to sell?

Unlike commercial firms its all French arsenals so unless they are made by the government to talk about states secrets to GB nothing would be available?
 
The French 7.5mm would make sense but Britain was not intending to raise a Continental army before the Munich Agreement which effectively removed the 33 Division Czechoslovakian army from any future alliance and the British started to make plans for a 32 Division army (6 Regular and 13 TA doubled to 26).

Up until then it was a Imperial SWAT team which had no intention in fighting n Europe

However to the OP the Bren adopted in 7.92 mauser coupled with a replacement for the SMLE - even a 7.92 mauser version of the No 4 Lee Enfield (brought into production earlier) with a later FN SLR (FN-49) would serve.

But I cannot see this happened after a WW2 where the early Entente beats the Axis or likely Germany as I do not see Italy jumping in (or if they do it will possibly be later on the '2nd' Entente side) or Japan.
 
the issue i see is that the 7.92mm round is ~4mm longer ovl than .303, i'm not sure if the smle will be an easy conversion
and if not then the smle receiver needs to be stretched, or a new rifle adopted,

assuming that the brits are 100% going forward with this plan their best bet is the loot k98k production lines, move the tooling and machinery to the uk, spend a bit of cash to rework the bolt into a dogleg, refine the stocks, put the sights they want on the guns, and call it something like the enfield p-44 until their semi auto rifle is ready
 
Was a 303 rimless ever seriously looked at ?
kind of
https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-303-inch-rimless
There were a number of different .303 inch rimless cartridges designed in the period 1917 to 1938 which were all strictly experimental in nature and will be described in the section on experimental ammunition. One however was made in considerable quantity and so is described here.
In 1918 there was a demand for a more powerful .303 inch cartridge from both the army and the newly formed Royal Air Force. The army's primary interest was for an armour piercing round to defeat German loopholes and sniper shields, whilst the Air Force wanted a more powerful round for observers' guns.

and then there's cartridges like 7.65×53mm Mauser and 7.7×58mm Arisaka that use .312-.313" diameter bullets and .47" diameter rims
 
I've wondered why they went with the .303 with the Bren. If you have been considering a rimless cartridge for several decades, shouldn't you jump at the chance to adopt the 8 x 57, or better the 7 x 57, with the new weapon?
Britain could have converted P14's to 7 x 57 any time between 1920 and 1935. The British could have looked into Czech ZH-29 adoption, or asked for submissions from British and foreign firms for semi-auto guns.
If it was just the British Army that had to be re equipped then maybe, but the entire Empire and Commonwealth would need re equipping which would be a huge expense at a time when other things had a higher priority for scarce funds.
 
I can see a problem with getting rimmed and rimless mixed up. Probably not a problem for a bolt action but nasty for a machine gun. Probably best to go for a completely different round.

They could have just called .303 rimless as 7.7mm on all the ammo boxes and cartons.

As for SLEM 1 I suspect they were just looking for a rimless round already in UK service for experimentation and a recognition that 30-06 was just too long to be practicable.
 
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