When it was realized how wet the Scharnhorst class was reconstruction of the bows were planned. Instead even though they would be out of commission for up to two years they were reconstructed with 15" guns and a much longer bow. The 8 turrets with 15 cm guns were replaced by 8 turrets with twin 10.5 cm guns resulting in the ships carrying 30, 10.5 cm guns along with their 6, 15" guns.
Scharnhorst class reconstructed
- Thread starter Musketeer513
- Start date
Deleted member 94680
Maybe bring the DP 12.7 gun into service?
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_5-45_skc41.php
That way you increase the anti-air protection whilst maintaining the secondary anti-ship battery as well?
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_5-45_skc41.php
That way you increase the anti-air protection whilst maintaining the secondary anti-ship battery as well?
Twin 15" turret was 1046t while the Scharnhorst turret was 750t ....that looks like 300t each. Original plans for the Twins were for twin 14" guns to replace the triple 11"C34. However Krupp designed 8" guns; 11" guns ; 15" guns & 16" guns but no 14" guns. Who was running the show? Raeder was the first to float the idea to Hitler - in 1934- that the 14" guns would replace the 11" guns.
Deleted member 94680
The Germans aren't in a "Vanguard position" here, they don't have old 15" guns lying around to use.
If 14" guns were to be used, they'd have to be entirely new pieces - but were the 15" suggested new as well? Or are they meant to be the same as fitted to Bismarck and Tirpitz? That could be the reason, simplicity of design and manufacture. In Germany's position, they don't have the facilities to churn out umpteen different calibres of naval guns.
If 14" guns were to be used, they'd have to be entirely new pieces - but were the 15" suggested new as well? Or are they meant to be the same as fitted to Bismarck and Tirpitz? That could be the reason, simplicity of design and manufacture. In Germany's position, they don't have the facilities to churn out umpteen different calibres of naval guns.
They were Indeed later intended to be the same as for Bismarck. I am basically speculating if the problems of using the 15'' instead of the 14'' on S and G were apparent when the 11'' and 15'' was ordered, but not explained to Hitler?
I do know they were designed so that the triple 11" turrets could be replaced by twin 15" turrets like the Bismarck's.
It was probably a matter of how badly the Germans wanted to replace the turrets. If they really wanted the refit, my guess is that they would not only need to install the new guns, but also modify the interior of the turrets, install new ammunition hoists, make changes to the ammunition handling rooms, make changes to the turret rings to compensate for say, increased recoil and also accept reductions in ship handling.
A the end of the day, reductions in ship handling would be especially problematic as the class already had handling issued. Such a re-fit, however, would probably not make the ship unseaworthy.
At the end of the day, such a re-fit was not only possible, but had also been done before by other navies. For example, I think the IJN up gunned several battle cruisers to make them more battle shipish. Likewise, the Soviets may of made up gun refits to large ships (with mixed results).
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The Mogami and Tone classes replaced a 177t triple 155mm turret with a 5-10 ton lighter twin 203mm turret, which is a lot easier than the Twins' case, where the 15" turret is 40% heavier than the 11" one it replaces.
Given this realization and the installation of Atlantic Bows happened in 1939 under your alternative S&G are now out of action until late 1941. Thus the British are up one very experienced carrier crew and with the reduced surface threat in the North Sea are able to swing Battlecruisers and the first of the KGVs to the Med (bad news for the Italians).
There's also significant risk that you've also terminally screwed up Germany's invasion of Norway... without the threat of S&G breaking out into the Atlantic it's much more likely the British read German intentions correctly, and thus much of the ivasion force ends up found and destroyed at sea.
Nope, the Japanese didn't upgun any battlecruisers (some light cruisers on the other hand...). They did uparmour their Battlecruisers and did rebuild one from it's semi-demiled training ship back to a proper Battlecruiser.
The Italians did up gun their some of their ships but that was a matter of boring out their 12in guns to 12.6in... a rather more manageable effort than new turrets with 15in guns or somehow ramming 14in guns into the existing turrets. Even then, they ended up having bugger all capital ships active through the late 1930s well into 1940...
From All the Work's Battleships, Hitler ordered the ships to be equipped with 380mm guns; but as the 280mm triple turret was readily available, he agreed that the two vessels should have 11in weapons initially. The ships would be upgunned at the earliest opportunity.
Anderman
Donor
Siegfried Breyer in "Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1905 - 1970" stated that Hitler ordered the ships to be equipped with the 28 cm because of british touchiness of the larger caliber.
He always wrote the it was possible to replace the tripple 28cm turret with a twin 38cm turret but this was not planed from the beginning.
He always wrote the it was possible to replace the tripple 28cm turret with a twin 38cm turret but this was not planed from the beginning.
It is true that when ordered with 280mm guns it was to mollify the British and it would take an additional 2 years for the turrets. One reason to use the 280mm turrets, they were already in production. Designed so triple 280mm can be replaced with twin 380mm. Planning on POD was in late 1938 when taken in for Atlantic bows work done then, not 1942 after bomb damage on Gneisenau. The length of modified ships 245.0m from original 229.8m and standard displacement 35kt from original 31.9kt. Think in a 2 on 2 fight they could then beat Renown's.
In any kind of Axis victory scenario (Be it some kind of peace in the west or AANW) the rearming of the Scharnhorst class would have been a foregone conclusion. It gives the Germans two formidable BC (11 inch was a bit wimpy for a BC), and gives them enough turrets for three more improved Pocket Battleships.
Deleted member 94680
So what was the armour scheme like?
History tells us that if you give the average captain 15" guns he'll end up facing off against battleships at some point. Would their armour enable them to survive an encounter with the Nelsons or the QEs for instance?
I thought the S&G were meant for commerce raiding, 15" guns puts them into the ship of the line category - is that what the KM really needs?
History tells us that if you give the average captain 15" guns he'll end up facing off against battleships at some point. Would their armour enable them to survive an encounter with the Nelsons or the QEs for instance?
I thought the S&G were meant for commerce raiding, 15" guns puts them into the ship of the line category - is that what the KM really needs?
Original plans for Twins & Bismarck were to be 6 x 20kt AGS type raiders with 5" belts armed with triple 11"C28 gun [Panzerschiffe D,E,F,G,H & J] . However under Hitler's reign the KM plans evolved to EITHER 8 x 25kt raiders each with 2* III 11" C34 OR 6 heavier 30kt raiders each with 3*III 11"C34 guns. The belt armor was 200mm but the armor base was up to 300mm, while the top speed was 29-30 knots.
In 1934 Raeder raised the notion of heavier 14" guns with Hitler , but Hitler reversed this back to 11" guns wanting to placate the Brits. So instead Raeder had the turrets designed to mount 3*11" guns but later to be switch to 2* 14" guns. In the meantime belt armor was boosted to 350mm, while the speed increased to >30 knots. This pattern of large warships featured BB armor & lesser guns on fast hulls- seems to have been part of German WW-I "Grobb Kreuzer" evolution.
In 1934 Raeder raised the notion of heavier 14" guns with Hitler , but Hitler reversed this back to 11" guns wanting to placate the Brits. So instead Raeder had the turrets designed to mount 3*11" guns but later to be switch to 2* 14" guns. In the meantime belt armor was boosted to 350mm, while the speed increased to >30 knots. This pattern of large warships featured BB armor & lesser guns on fast hulls- seems to have been part of German WW-I "Grobb Kreuzer" evolution.
The twins were essentially armored as tough as Bismarck with a little less belt armor and top side armor, so even more fragile at distance, but fully capable of taking their place in the line.