Russo Japanese alliance- how, when and why?

MatthewB

Banned
If Imperial Russia was prepared to enter into an alliance (or similar) with Japan and thereby recognize Japan as a peer (or similar) before 1902, then it would be Japan rather than Russian offering the concessions. At that point the existing world order was inherently racist and an alliance between a colonial power and an Asiatic power was not familiar territory. For many of the reasons outlined above, an early alliance between Imperial Russia and Imperial Japan is an elegant solution to many problems, but it would require a very different mindset among the Russian decision makers.
If Britain could see a way to deal with Japan in 1902, Russia can do it in the 1890s. Russia, like Britain and its concern over Germany, just needs suitable motivation to push for the Japan deal.

For starters, we need a POD that creates a closer understanding between Russia and Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rosen apparently tried to avoid the war and negotiated treaties with Japan in the 1890s.

There were others with the potential to see through the racism to see potential with Japan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Izvolsky

"While in Tokyo, Izvolsky urged a peaceful accommodation with the rising power of Imperial Japan over Korea and Manchuria. He assisted Japanese former Prime Minister Itō Hirobumi arrange a trip to St. Petersburg in 1902 in an effort to defuse increasing tensions. These efforts incurred the wrath of Tsar Nicholas II..."
 
If Britain could see a way to deal with Japan in 1902, Russia can do it in the 1890s. Russia, like Britain and its concern over Germany, just needs suitable motivation to push for the Japan deal.

For starters, we need a POD that creates a closer understanding between Russia and Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rosen apparently tried to avoid the war and negotiated treaties with Japan in the 1890s.

There were others with the potential to see through the racism to see potential with Japan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Izvolsky

"While in Tokyo, Izvolsky urged a peaceful accommodation with the rising power of Imperial Japan over Korea and Manchuria. He assisted Japanese former Prime Minister Itō Hirobumi arrange a trip to St. Petersburg in 1902 in an effort to defuse increasing tensions. These efforts incurred the wrath of Tsar Nicholas II..."

That’s true but one of the main negative factors was NII who openly called Japanese “the monkeys” and considered them inferior human species. Up to which degree this was due to the accident during his visit is anybody’s guess. Of course, besides the people capable of a realistic assessment, there were numerous others ready to say and write whatever would please him, like Kuropatkin who provided negative assessment of the Japanese military.
 

MatthewB

Banned
That’s true but one of the main negative factors was NII who openly called Japanese “the monkeys” and considered them inferior human species. Up to which degree this was due to the accident during his visit is anybody’s guess.
We need to fix that. But the emperor himself visited Nicolas, that’s pretty strong. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ōtsu_incident

Maybe this guy can convince Nico https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esper_Ukhtomsky

Best POD is that Nicolas dies during his Russian overland return to St. Petersburg, but with no perceived Japanese involvement.
 
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We need to fix that. But the emperor himself visited Nicolas, that’s pretty strong. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ōtsu_incident

Maybe this guy can convince Nico https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esper_Ukhtomsky

Best POD is that Nicolas dies during his Russian overland return to St. Petersburg, but with no perceived Japanese involvement.

As I said, I have no idea if the visit was a mind-shaping event (and it seems that the Russian sailors of all ranks regularly ... er... “had a good time” visiting Japan so there was no animosity :) ). Nicky’s early death obviously could be beneficial and not only to Russia.

However, we can not completely discount afactor of greed: during that period everybody was trying to loot China and the Russian government was not an exception (IIRC, only RR across Eastern China was generating few millions profits in gold annually) so getting a reasonable arrangement with Japan would be a prerequisite and Korea was one more touchy issue by the same reason. In OTL, AFAIK, Russia tended to rely upon the agreements with Chinese government neglecting Japanese “interests”. Of course, change of these attitudes was not impossible.
 

BooNZ

Banned
If Britain could see a way to deal with Japan in 1902, Russia can do it in the 1890s. Russia, like Britain and its concern over Germany, just needs suitable motivation to push for the Japan deal.
What exactly was the Russian concern over Germany? British diplomacy had its problems during the period, but from what I can understand, British diplomacy was positively professional compared to their self-serving Russian counterparts.

Many of us recognize it would have been in Russian interests to continue to avoid foreign entanglements well beyond the 1890s and with the benefit of hindsight, an alliance or understanding with Japan (and/or the Ottomans) would help facilitate this. However, the act of aligning with non-European powers would have scarcely been contemplated and would certainly antagonize many of those powers Russia traditionally considered relevant. Imperial Russia aligning itself with Imperial Japan would be a far bolder diplomatic move than the OTL creep to war.

For starters, we need a POD that creates a closer understanding between Russia and Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rosen apparently tried to avoid the war and negotiated treaties with Japan in the 1890s.
If Russian decision makers had understood realities and prioritized the interests of the Russian state, then an understanding with Japan would have been a logical conclusion. In my opinion, there is not a lot on a Japanese wish list, which would not also be in the best interests of Imperial Russia.
  • Japanese control of greater Korea - Imperial Russia does not need to contend with vast numbers of backward minorities (a not entirely racist assessment of the population at the time). The population of Manchuria was sparse when compared to Korea(s).
  • Limited Russian naval presence in Asia - Imperial Russian colonial interests were generally contiguous and it does not have interests in Asia that require the permanent basing of capital ships. A moderate force of modern cruisers and lighter craft would be perfectly adequate to fly the flag.
  • Not necessarily maximizing Russian territory in Asia - Imperial Russia was already heavily dependent on locals and Chinese to manage their existing Asian holdings.
While mindful of their limitations, I am sympathetic to the Russian efforts in obtaining/ maintaining warm water parts south-west of the Korean peninsular - at a minimum, it eliminates a potential contiguous land connection the Japanese may use to continue to nibble at China.
 
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