Roman Empire

[bernardz]

The steppes are at least nomadic, Germania, the Balkans, Eastern Europe are very habitable, this meant the people there could grow to large populations and actually change the demographic and linguistic makeup of Rome if they invaded.

The steppes produced better soldiers and also they could create massive armies. Now and then they built a military superpower. Cannot say the same of the Germans, where the Romans tended to face many small armies of Germans. Also what is interesting is that a pattern developed when the steppes put pressure on the Germans pushing them into Rome. In the process, the Germans were taking the first hit.

That's why the Germanic migrators didn't just pull a Qing and stay at the top, there were enough of them to dominate the area in force and so they didn't just completely assimilate into Rome, they fundamentally changed each of the areas

Some truth to this but at the end, the Barbarians adopted the Roman religion Christianity, Roman philosophy, generally the Roman language which became French, Italian, etc. The fundamental difference is that for some reason unlike in China, once Rome fell apart, it never pulled itself together.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

The steppes produced better soldiers and also they could create massive armies. Now and then they built a military superpower. Cannot say the same of the Germans, where the Romans tended to face many small armies of Germans. Also what is interesting is that a pattern developed when the steppes put pressure on the Germans pushing them into Rome. In the process, the Germans were taking the first hit.



Some truth to this but at the end, the Barbarians adopted the Roman religion Christianity, Roman philosophy, generally the Roman language which became French, Italian, etc. The fundamental difference is that for some reason unlike in China, once Rome fell apart, it never pulled itself together.

I didn't argue whether or not the steppe made better conquerors, what I said was that the steppe doesn't allow the same population height as Germany and Eastern Europe in general so when the steppe people come they fuck shit up and either die out (the Huns), slowly loose power and fall back to homeland, or integrate into the vastly largely sedentary society(Qing). The reason why Rome didn't come back together is that the Frank's, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, etc, were all forever different cultures that dominated the area and had no desire to come together even if by force. When China broke apart many times, it remained Chinese, as the rulers were either Chinese themselves or were not Chinese but so small in numbers that they assimilated. The Germanic tribes didn't fully assimilate, they and Rome fused to create new cultures

 

[bernardz]

I didn't argue whether or not the steppe made better conquerors,

The historical record here is pretty good.

what I said was that the steppe doesn't allow the same population height as Germany and Eastern Europe in general so when the steppe people come they fuck shit up and either die out (the Huns), slowly loose power and fall back to homeland, or integrate into the vastly largely sedentary society(Qing). The reason why Rome didn't come back together is that the Frank's, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, etc, were all forever different cultures that dominated the area and had no desire to come together even if by force. When China broke apart many times, it remained Chinese, as the rulers were either Chinese themselves or were not Chinese but so small in numbers that they assimilated. The Germanic tribes didn't fully assimilate, they and Rome fused to create new cultures

I think this is part of the answer.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I find it strange how so many people argue that technological innovation would have saved the Romans, or any other state. Technological superiority has very little to do with political stability, especially with such a massive state where centralized authority would be impossible.

I tend to agree, though I think something like the Heavy plow would do wonders for Western Rome, making them less dependant on North Africa and increased food production could mitigate the demographic decline.