Richard The Lionheart has a son
- Thread starter VVD0D95
- Start date
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
If he sends him to Ireland imagine the sheer hurricane of excrement that would be whipped up with John there long term... John really was a very average commander at best. Could he do anything of use there?
VVD0D95
Banned
Other than be out of the way of London, probably not. I can half imagine Richard maybe looking to send John on another crusade if there is one, to get him out of the nation, or maybe sending him on a voyage somewhere to serve as an ambassador.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Well he did marry Berengaria so surely the easierst PoD is to say that the marriage was consummated and the Queen delivers a son in March 1192. After the arguments over the planning of the campaign for Jerusalem, Richard decides to leave with his wife and heir for England rather than be led by the French. He returns home in midsummer butterflying his shipwreck, capture and ransoming and hence arrives home with his family in the autumn of 1192 before John's usurpation of power has time to take hold. Without the ransom - two years income for the English crown - Richard is in a stronger position in England and in France. Even if dies as OTL in 1199 his son will be difficult to displace and if he can manage to stay alive for another 10 years the succession would be secure.
VVD0D95
Banned
This is very true. I may change my timeline then. So, if Richard does his duty, consumates the marriage and Richard junior is a wedding night baby as it were, then Richard returns for England, avoiding a whole load of mess that fucked over his brother later on, that could only be for the good. The question thus arises is that, does Richard still go on the crusade or avoid it completely?
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
Richard seems the sort to only do something if hes in charge - or at least one of the ones in charge.
Derek Pullem
Donor
I don't think you could stop Richard going on Crusade - I do think he could storm off in a fit of pique at his campaign plan not being adopted especially if he has a wife and new born son and heir to take care of.
Sometime after the retreat from Jerusalem in June 1192
Sometime after the retreat from Jerusalem in June 1192
VVD0D95
Banned
This is very true, would be fascinating if he shows up in late July 1192, starts throwing his weight around, scores a few victories and then they're forced to fuck off home.
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
Just to say - I'm not sure incompetence is grounds for imprisoning a prince of the blood. Sets a bad precedent and if followed half the royalty of Europe is behind bars...
Perhaps have John marry Isabella of Jerusalem rather than his his nephew.
Derek Pullem
Donor
IOTL Richard arrived in June 1191 and was present for the fall of Acre and the Battle of Arsuf. IOTL he quarrelled with the Duke of Burgundy over the strategy for taking Jerusalem in June 1992 - he wanted to attack Egypt whilst Hugh wanted to assault Jerusalem directly. The PoD here is that Richard follows Leopold of Austria and Phillip of France's example after Acre and instead of negotiating with Saladin for the next four months, leaves this to Hugh and departs for home.
Derek Pullem
Donor
TBH with an heir in the bag and Arthur as a reserve Richard could easily have imprisoned his brother rather than just stripping him of his lands in England. Remarkably soft hearted for such an impulsive and violent man (allegedly)
VVD0D95
Banned
Makes sense to
Me where would berengaria and his son be during this time? On crusade with him
Or?
Derek Pullem
Donor
I think with him on Crusade.
She went with him IOTL and hated it - with a young son the nagging to go home would be even more incessant. IOTL she left quite soon after their arrival in the Holy Land - here her condition probably precludes a long journey back to England. So with a birth in March 1192, a return in June sounds about right.
She went with him IOTL and hated it - with a young son the nagging to go home would be even more incessant. IOTL she left quite soon after their arrival in the Holy Land - here her condition probably precludes a long journey back to England. So with a birth in March 1192, a return in June sounds about right.
VVD0D95
Banned
Seems fair and no doubt the people will be happy to have their king and queen and now an heir, home
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
Well, its better than languishing in his enemy's dungeon and necessitating the asset stripping of the entire kingdom...
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
John (whilst rubbing his hands gleefully): Aha, with my brother away I shall suborn the treasures of the kingdom, spread my cronies to all corners, consolidate my power ba-
Richard (walking in and grabbing a goblet): Yo, lil bro, Ricky's back! Bring out the account books, meet my wife and kidling, and get off my f***ing throne!
John:.....balls.
Baby Richard(regally): Wah.
VVD0D95
Banned
Lol.
*Few years down the line Richard junior's about eight here.
"Uncle John, why are you always so grumpy?"
"Grumpy? My dear boy, I'm not grumpy, I am merely serious."
"Why are you so serious?"
"Do you want to know how I got this scar?" Points to scar above his right eye.
"Yes, Uncle John!"
"Well it all started when a young Prince was left in charge of a great Empire......"