We had a couple of threads about surviving Richard II, but I've never seen something about this premise. So let the fun begin! What if Richard of Bordeaux died as soon as his other brother, Edward of Angouleme, thus "forcing" Edward III to leave the throne to John of Gaunt, as a king John II after EIII's death in 1377? How would John of Gaunt do as a king (I think he'd be pretty capable politician and administrator, but his claim to Castilian throne combined with lack of military prowess could cause several problems). Would Henry (OTL Henry IV) being Prince of Wales rather than mere heir to Duchy of Lancaster, still marry Mary de Bohun? @iMercadier @Jan Olbracht @isabella @Kellan Sullivan
Richard II dies in infancy
- Thread starter Zygmunt Stary
- Start date
That would make precedence of semi-salic succession.
Bolingbroke certainly should marry better-Navarrese infanta perhaps?
Bolingbroke certainly should marry better-Navarrese infanta perhaps?
Not really, Lionel of Clarence died before Edward III and John of Gaunt could use the precedent of John I coming to throne before both Arthur and Eleanor of Britanny to justify his ascension, so whether semi-salic succesion would be introduced or not would be up to Gaunt, but considering that the guy tried to completely abolish female succesion, you're right. Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterina_Visconti would do for prince of Wales? There were IOTL talks about her marriage with Richard II, if Gaunt understands value of money more and doesn't fall for Karl IV's schemes, than he could marry his son to her?
Edward the Black Prince might survive, although it'll take a large butterfly, in which case Gaunt becoming king is impossible.
"John" as a name for English monarchs oughta be revived, and will experience a revival in popularity unless Gaunt takes on a regnal name.
Henry IV mighht get married to Joan of Navarre earlier, as an alliance is required. Or Caterina Visconti? Or, Marie of Valois lives cuz butterflies?
"John" as a name for English monarchs oughta be revived, and will experience a revival in popularity unless Gaunt takes on a regnal name.
Henry IV mighht get married to Joan of Navarre earlier, as an alliance is required. Or Caterina Visconti? Or, Marie of Valois lives cuz butterflies?
iMercadier
Banned
Interesting premise. John of Gaunt OTL was despised by the common people of England, untrusted by Parliament, a hopeless politician and a blundering fool of a general. One could compare him to Charles de Valois, but at least he had one redeeming quality: his military skill. What did John of Gaunt ever accomplish in his life? Nothing.
The Peasants' Revolt of 1381 could easily lead to his disposition, as OTL he narrowly escaped being lynched in the streets of London.
The Peasants' Revolt of 1381 could easily lead to his disposition, as OTL he narrowly escaped being lynched in the streets of London.
I think this one is most probable, because Gaunt needs money above everything else.
Was he? Sources about him which were available to me painted him as sort of evil mastermind and political genius (also very rich), but lacking military skill.
Succession would be more intetesting if Richard II was born as girl-obvious solution would be to marry her to Bolingbroke to unite claims.
iMercadier
Banned
It's a long chapter, but John of Gaunt is ultimately shown to be an incompetent politician.
The Revolt of the Towns 1380–1382 - The Hundred Years War, Volume 3: Divided Houses
The Revolt of the Towns 1380–1382 - The Hundred Years War, Volume 3: Divided Houses - by Jonathan Sumption
erenow.net
Edward III (at least Michael Benett said so) ignored every female descendant of his as a possible heir.
I don't think that'll happen.
They don't need to unite any claims, Fem! Richard (Phillipa?) will become Queen in her own right, and John of Gaunt and his descendants aren't going to get anywhere near the throne. If she has a domestic match, she'll get married to someone from the Clarence line.
The Black Prince won't stand for his kids getting excluded from the line of succession, and he was infinitely more popular than Gaunt, so Parliament isn't going to back him either.
May I have your source? He isn't a historian, atleast according to Google.
And the Black Prince won't stand his kids getting excluded from succession, and Edward III's entail won't exclude girls as well, seeing as Gaunt isn't there to influence it......
It's a long chapter, but John of Gaunt is ultimately shown to be an incompetent politician.
The Revolt of the Towns 1380–1382 - The Hundred Years War, Volume 3: Divided Houses
The Revolt of the Towns 1380–1382 - The Hundred Years War, Volume 3: Divided Houses - by Jonathan Sumption
Facts which were mentioned about Gaunt in this chapter are: Gaunt was rather reckless (he wanted to march to London in the middle of Anglo-Scottish war, when he himself commanded troops fielded against Scots), Gaunt was not liked by commoners and lesser nobility (they blamed him for Richard's failures), Gaunt's foreign policy towards Flanders was considered too agressive, is it enough to frame someone "incompetent politician" (but he's certainly no mastermind).
https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/CXIII/452/580/452702?redirectedFrom=fulltext - this article is my source. According to it's full version (article's) Edward III himself did not want female to succeed him, so if Black Prince is so cocky about his daughter being Queen in her own right, there might be a civil war between father and son.
I do not have access to it, apparently.
Can you send a screenshot?
Civil war is unlikely. Edward III got influenced by his eldest surviving son OTL, I don't think this would change ATL.
iMercadier
Banned
I would argue so. John of Gaunt held great dreams and ambitions, all of which ended in failure. He plotted to attain the Regency of England, become King of Castile, end the Hundred Years War in a decisive battle. Without the slightest hint of fruition or reward for all these laberous pursuits, he was ultimately a scapegoat to the English people at large.
My computer cannot into making screenshots, so no.
In what way he got influenced by Black Prince?
So you think that if he was to become king of England, it'd all end in pointless scrambling for Gaunt's ambition?
Eldest surviving son OTL, as in Gaunt.
And Prince Edward prolly had some influence, he ruled Aquitaine with mediocre results, for example, and should have had Wales, so his father trusted him, at any rate.
But we do not know if EIII liked ideas of Gaunt because they were Gaunt's or Gaunt just happened to share ideas sympathetic to his father.
Because they were Gaunt's.
Edward III wasn't a fool. He knew that his claim to France was through female inheritance, HOWEVER he was senile, and might have been depressed, and Gaunt, being Gaunt, tried to influence his father, and succeeded.
But one could say that claim to France does not equate claim to England so there might be two different systems of inheritance in these two countries.