Redrawing the borders of Prussia post alt-WWI

[Deleted member 94680]

So, before the usual Versailles hater/apologists leap in, this is a bit different.

In a scenario where WWI ends in a white peace/limited CP victory/uti possidetis situation, how realistic is it to suggest Prussia may have territorial adjustments?

Would, at the resultant Great Power Conference, the Kaiser (as king of Prussia) be willing to cede territory to a new or existing German state as part of the Empire?

In a scenario where Belgium is to be divided between Germany/France/a British client state, would, say Luxembourg, be enlarged with previously Prussian territory if Luxembourg were to join the Reich?

Or is it not possible for the Prussians to give up territory in exchange for French reconciliation by moving their border away from France’s?

 

[BigBlueBox]

Probably not. What you would need is a limited CP defeat, causing anger within the German population with their government, thus forcing reform.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

Probably not. What you would need is a limited CP defeat, causing anger within the German population with their government, thus forcing reform.

In that context, you're more likely to see the elimination of the three-class electoral system and a strengthening of both the Prussian Landtag and the Reichstag against the Kaiser, rather than territorial adjustments in favor of, say, Bavaria, Saxony, or Hesse.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Probably not. What you would need is a limited CP defeat, causing anger within the German population with their government, thus forcing reform.

I’m not talking about reform from within Germany.

I mean at a new “Concert of Europe”, where Belgium is divided or territory is gained by Germany in the East, would the Kaiser agree to redraw Prussia’s borders (if the French asked for it to limit Prussia’s power), whilst the territory gained still became German?

Borders of states were redrawn at the Concert of Vienna, sometimes to include gained territory (IIRC), whilst rulers of states ‘swapped’ land as well. Could, in 1919, the same kind of thing happen if no one Power (or group of Powers) was seen as strong enough to enforce a Diktat?

 

[Saci]

I mean at a new “Concert of Europe”, where Belgium is divided or territory is gained by Germany in the East, would the Kaiser agree to redraw Prussia’s borders (if the French asked for it to limit Prussia’s power), whilst the territory gained still became German?

The King of Prussia is the German Emperor. By "weakening" Prussia you are directly weakening the German Empire. I also fail to see how any german, be it monarchist or socialist, would be interested to give foreign powers the right to arbitrate over Germany's internal constituition. The mere acceptance of these offers would implicate that the notion of a german nationhood among the german kingdoms is relative.

 

[BellaGerant]

Weren't the German kings (particularly the Bavarian one, or at least the crown prince) quite eager to cut Prussia down to size (or at least provide a counterbalance to it) and try to make it less of a Prussian Empire and more pan-German? I could see the constituent kingdoms, particularly the southern Germans, push for such an arrangement if it meant they had more of a say in the Empire's affairs, even or especially if it meant Prussia loses influence over the rest.

Of course, depends on the Emperor in the end. If he has to trade old territories to the kingdoms for new territories in Belgium, Luxembourg, etc., or the alternative being sacrificing territories, I could see it.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

The King of Prussia is the German Emperor. By "weakening" Prussia you are directly weakening the German Empire. I also fail to see how any german, be it monarchist or socialist, would be interested to give foreign powers the right to arbitrate over Germany's internal constituition. The mere acceptance of these offers would implicate that the notion of a german nationhood among the german kingdoms is relative.

The territory being ‘taken’ from Prussia wouldn’t be going to a foreign country, it would go to an existing member of the Empire or a newly created member. Say, Hanover becoming independent again, or Lower Rhine merging with Belgian territory to make a new Grand Duchy, something like that.

The idea being it would be a ‘sweetener’ to the French to accept German expansion, whilst making Prussia seem less threatening. It would have to be agreed on the Germans part - not dictated by a foreign power.

 

[CaliGuy]

In a scenario where Belgium is to be divided between Germany/France/a British client state, would, say Luxembourg, be enlarged with previously Prussian territory if Luxembourg were to join the Reich?

This is probably possible.

Also, with the right German leadership, perhaps German-puppet Poland can eventually receive most of Posen Province from Prussia as a gift.