Railroad thread

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Eventually PRR wires reach Chicago as well?

If so, probably via the Panhandle Route from Columbus via Logansport, rather than the Ft. Wayne Division. Mostly because Columbus to Chicago is cheaper by far.

Besides, I was envisioning the PRR in general being more of a rival to the Chessie by the 1980s of my TL, while the Erie Lackawanna and NYC battle for intermodal dominance. That said, I can envision the PRR using the Ft. Wayne Division for fast freights (with Amtrak taking advantage of that fact), and the Panhandle for their coal and ore movements.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I have been thinking that I would try and focus on the railroad preservation movement for the next few posts. Starting with some more PRR Preserved K4s ITTL:

K4 Class 4-6-2
- #1120: Operational out of the Cuyahoga Valley Railroad; Cleveland, OH
- #1188: On display at the Museum of Transportation: Kirkwood, MO
- #1361: Operational out of Altoona, PA, often double-heading with #3750
- #1737: ITTL, she was in better mechanical shape, and takes #3750's place at Strasburg, PA
- #3750: Operational out of Altoona, PA, often double-heading with #1361
- #5399: Operational out of the Ft. Wayne Railroad Historical Society: New Haven, IN
- #5336: On display at the Illinois Railway Museum: Union, IL

Any other ideas for K4s I could preserve are welcome. I do intend to have K4s and M1s be the most represented.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I thought I'd update everyone on the new fates of the railroads ITTL:

Missouri Pacific
Absorbed into the Milwaukee Road in 1977.

St. Louis - San Fransisco
Remains under ATSF control thanks to butterflies during the 1893 Panic. Eventually absorbed into parent system in 1978.

Missouri-Kansas-Texas
Taken over by Burlington Northern in 1980.

St. Louis Southwestern
Taken over by Southern Pacific in 1959.

Central of Georgia
Split between Illinois Central and Amtrak Georgia in 1983. (Based on ideas by @Republic of Michigan).

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Remembering the Steel Interstate @Lucas introduced me too, I thought of the BN and Amtrak Texas working to electrify the MKT and built a mostly parallel HSR line from Ft. Worth-Dallas to Austin and San Antonio.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

This is part of a greater USA TL I have planned. Long story short, the Northern half of California splits off. This IS only a vignette at this point, so I'll be thinking of more ideas in a bit.

June 3, 1952
Southern Pacific Headquarters: Oakland, Jefferson

"Mr. Russel," asked a board member. "What are we gonna do about the growing traffic from St. Louis and Chicago?"

"Huh?" asked Donald Russel, having looked up after flipping through a report he had received the day before.

"Come on, Don," said President Armand Mercer "You know Santa Fe isn't going to accept the Burlington Northern's offer for the Frisco. Remember all those duplicate lines they ripped up in 1893 just so they could keep it? Or for that matter how they waited a decade to build further west so they could keep it?"

"True," agreed Russel. He paused for a moment before making his next move.

"That," went on Mercer, "and traffic from Chicago is only going to increase because the European continent is still in shambles. [1]"

"Is Union Pacific still hoping to take up the Chicago Northwestern?" asked Russel.

"Yup," said Mercer, "That, and they want to reach St. Louis on their own line. They're still sore about the Pennsy getting the Wabash."

Russel paused for a moment.

"I know," he said, "a way we can try to get the Rock Island under out belt for the most part."

"What do you mean 'the most part'?" asked Mercer.

Russel showed a map of the Rock Island, which he had previously highlighted with a marker to include some lines he believed would be of value to the SP itself.

"You see," explained Russel, "We've already got our own line to St. Louis because of the Cotton Belt. That means that the St. Louis line the Rock Island owns would not be as necessary. Meanwhile, Union Pacific wants to get closer to the major east-west rail junctions, and I doubt it'll want to stop with just Chicago."

"What are you trying to say, Mr. Russel?" asked Mercer.

"I'm thinking that if we strike a deal with UP to give them the Rock Island's St. Louis line, we can keep most of the rest of the network. Then, we sell of whatever we don't need or even want to shortlines, industries, or just a group of volunteers with a steamer and some old coaches."

Mercer was not completely impressed, but was able to understand where Russel was coming from.

"So," said Mercer. "My understanding is that you think if we give UP the Rock Island's St. Louis line, we can make a better case for getting the rest?"

"Precisely."

[1] TTL's Great War. As the WW1 of OTL instead ended up being split into separate conflicts.

OOC: Based mainly on various points @Republic of Michigan bought up earlier in the thread, and my plans to butterfly ATSF losing the SLSF in 1893.

 

[Lucas]

@Andrew Boyd, @TheMann, would like to share some early diesel units that i create for my railroad timeline. Maybe if you interest if some of them. I Have some steam templates too if you would like some to be painted in your TTL roads.

Baldwin DP-X1-2000 - 1923

In 1923, Baldwin built a prototype transfer diesel unit, as way to experiment the at time new diesel tecnologies. The model as know as DP-X1-2000 (Diesel Prototype, one of type, 2,000 hp). Despite of initial ideas to be a mainline design, but not be so very weel, they became good transfer and yard operations engine. B&W in 1925 bought the prototype unit, and ask to Baldwin to built more 4 units. These are used in 1957, and serve as base to some latter era Baldwin units and ALCO design.

ALCO Type I - 1933

In 1933, Emerson Electric and ALCO make a agree to built a prototype mainline diesel engine to proven some of new tecnologies came around. In 1936, EE and ALCO came if the Type I articulated diesel-electric model. The model have some relative sucess a the time, if Southern Pacific, Appalachian Midwestern, Great Northern, Boston & Western and Union Pacific order at total of 30 units between 1936 - 1938, and give ALCO a advantage on diesel market over GE and EMD. The Type I have dual cabs and 1,500 hp, and make a base for latter models as ALCO FA-1 and PA ones.

Pullman and Emerson Electric Dual-Power Motor Coach - 1915

In 1913, after a massive collision between two steam freight trains in tunnel outside Western Station, New York City pass a law that ban steam traction into city mainlines and tunnels. One of reasons of crash as the smoke that make on freight not see a red signal. Steam only as allowed on low dense areas or small freight operations on surface. Because this, in 1915, Emerson Electric and Pullman create a dual-power diesel and electric motor engine, based on Pullman Coaches, to be used around NYC, Boston and on NEC. 40 units are bought by B&W, and some are used until 1962 on yard shuting or MOW trains on subway tunnels.

 

[TheMann]

Canadian Locomotive Company Type 55
Produced: West Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Number Built: 67
Dates Built: May 1962-June 1966
In Service: July 1962-September 2002

The locomotive that saved the CLC and it's famed West Kingston locomotive plant, the mighty Type 55 'Deltic', commonly referred to by CN and CP crew as the 'Racing Thunder' locomotives, the Type 55 came about as a combination of CLC's desire for new products to build after Fairbanks-Morse exited the locomotive business in 1959 and a desire by English Electric and Robinson Heavy Industries (which had held the license to build the Napier Deltic engine in Canada since WWII) to use the powerful Deltic engine for new purposes. After the three companies began developing a design in the summer of 1960, several CLC engineers went to England to test out the DP1 Deltic, while CLC designed a locomotive to suit the plans.

The first Type 55, shown off to the public in May 1962, lived up to its builders' expectations. Effectively a knock-off of the British Type 55 in mechanical components, the components were wrapped around a full-carbody design locomotive, similar in many ways to the Alco PA in design, though with distinctive 'coves' in the middle of the body where dynamic brake panels were. The locomotive was equipped with panels meant to be easily removed to allow the locomotive's twin Deltic engines to be easily removed for maintenance, and the improved electrical components and heavier weight of the Canadian Type 55 gave it a considerable tractive effort advantage over the British engine, though it was geared for a considerably lower top speed - while British Deltics routinely reached speeds of 120 mph, the Canadian one was geared for just 100 mph. Despite this, the twin-engined locomotive was clearly designed for passenger services.

The timing for the locomotive was good. While most North American railroads were in the process of giving up on passenger trains, CN was determined to not give up on its famed 'Great Canadian Fleet', and was in the process of buying huge amounts of excess passenger equipment from American railroads for its fleet renewal, allowing it's Malvern, Transcona and Airdrie Shops to rebuild the equipment so that it could be used for the fleet. CN's purchases allowed them to buy some choice equipment, including the famed Great Northern 'Great Dome' dome cars, Southern Pacific's three-unit dining cars and the Milwaukee Road's 'Skytop' observation cars, along with over two hundred refurbished sleeping cars, dome and picture-window coaches, lounge cars and baggage cars, which were all extensively refurbished by CN before ever entering service on its trains. While the luxuries on these trains appealed to passengers in a big way - a similar story to Canadian Pacific's Canadian, which got a similar overhaul in the mid-1950s - it resulted in trains regularly exceeding 20 cars in length and sometimes even reaching 25 cars, which resulted in a need for more power to pull them.

CN had been in the process of refurbishing it's fleet of Alco PA and FPA-4/FPB-4 diesels (and a handful of acquired second-hand EMD E8A and FP7B locomotives), but the company enthusiastically tested the Type 55 on numerous runs, usually pairing it with FPB-4 units, with engineers frequently being amazed by the power the Type 55 could deliver. Having been proven, CN ordered 50 units in September 1962, with CP also ordering 16 units in November of that year. Despite a US tour in the fall of 1962, no American orders came for the locomotive, despite quite a lot of interest from several parties.

Once initial issues with electrical components were sorted out and CN maintenance crews got the hang of maintaining the high-strung Deltic prime movers, the Type 55 proved bulletproof reliable in service. Only one Type 55 was ever lost (that one being destroyed in the infamous Hinton disaster in February 1986), and they proved just as much a part of the Great Canadian Fleet of the 1960s, 1970s and onwards as the dark green, gold and piano black passenger cars they pulled. After Via Rail's formation in 1980 and the growing electrification of CN and CP routes, the locomotives began to be withdrawn in the late 1980s, but the power needs of the trains in the West saw many last all the way to the 21st Century, the last ones withdrawn from service in 2002.

 

[TheMann]

^ To add to what I said above, this is what a typical late-1960s consist of a 'Great Canadian Fleet' flagship (Super Continental, Atlantica, Pacifica or Ocean) looks like:

- 1 locomotive setup (usually 2 Type 55s or PA-4s and 2 FPB-4s)
-- 1 extra locomotive (usually a PA-4) would be used on the train between Vancouver and Edmonton (Super Continental) or Seattle and Lethbridge (Atlantica/Pacifica) to help through the heavier grades of the Rockies
- 3 baggage cars
- 1 refrigerator/crew dormitory
-- 1 shorter-journey coach was operated on both trains from Lethbridge or Edmonton to Winnipeg
- 1 5-car coach section (made up of two dome coaches, two picture-window coaches and a lounge car)
- 2 sleeping cars
- 1 three-unit dining car
- 1 sleeping car
-- 1 extra sleeping car are part of the train during peak travel periods
- 1 Great Dome car
- 1 sleeping car
-- 1 extra sleeping car are part of the train during peak travel periods
- 1 dining car
- 1 lounge car
- 2 sleeping cars
- 1 sleeper/lounge/observation

The Great Canadian Fleet of trains was, at its peak in the 1950s, was made up by these trains:

Super Continental - Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa to Vancouver via Sudbury[1], Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton and Kamloops

Atlantica / Pacifica[2] - Seattle[3] to Halifax via West Spokane, Lethbridge, Regina, Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Fredericton and Moncton

Ocean - Toronto to Halifax via Montreal, Quebec City, Fredericton and Moncton

Wild Rose - Lethbridge to Fort McMurray via Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton[4]

Cavalier - Detroit to Quebec City via London, Kitchener, Toronto, Oshawa, Kingston, Brockville, Montreal and Trois-Rivieres

International Limited - Chicago to Toronto via Lansing, Flint, Port Huron, Sarnia, Stratford, London, Woodstock, Brantford, Burlington and Oakville

Maple Leaf - Toronto to New York via Hamilton, Niagara Falls, Buffalo and Albany

Fleur de Lis - Montreal to New York via Burlington and Albany

Salish Sea - Portland to Vancouver[5] via Olympia, Tacoma, Seattle and Everett

Evangeline - Ottawa to Halifax via Montreal, Quebec City, Campbellford, Miramichi and Moncton

General Brock - Niagara Falls to Ottawa via St. Catharines, Hamilton, Oakville, Toronto, Oshawa, Port Hope, Trenton, Kingston and Smiths Falls

Northlander - Toronto to Moosonee via Huntsville, North Bay and Timmins[6]

Canadian Shield - Winnipeg to Ottawa via Thunder Bay, Sudbury, North Bay and Pembroke

Chaleur - Montreal to Gaspe via Trois-Rivieres, Quebec City and Campbellton

This is in addition to many, many local trains, particularly in densely-populated corridors and in areas where train service is quite important to local travelers. CN operated hundreds of diesel multiple units (mostly Budd RDCs) to handle this service as the age of steam came to an end, becoming the single largest user of the RDC. (They would also be the single-largest user of the Budd SPV-2000 later on.)

[1] The Toronto and Montreal/Ottawa sections of the Super Continental combined at Sudbury

[2] The train is referred to by the name of the ocean it is heading towards - westbound is Pacifica, eastbound is Atlantica

[3] In the Go North Universe the Columbia River treaty ended up with a different result thanks to First Nations support of the British in the area, resulting in everything north and west of Columbia River being Canadian territory, including the entire Salish Sea region

[4] The Wild Rose connects with the Atlantica at Lethbridge and the Super Continental at Edmonton to allow easier connections

[5] Winter runs of the Salish Sea go north to Whistler, British Columbia

[6] Operated by CN crews south of Huntsville, Ontario, Ontario Northland crews north of that

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

On the subject of American passenger trains. I doubt I'll have many British diesels used for America beyond a few lines in the east. Mostly because as TheMann pointed out, the needs of American railroads would take a quick physical toll on them.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

Baldwin DP-X1-2000 - 1923

In 1923, Baldwin built a prototype transfer diesel unit, as way to experiment the at time new diesel tecnologies. The model as know as DP-X1-2000 (Diesel Prototype, one of type, 2,000 hp). Despite of initial ideas to be a mainline design, but not be so very weel, they became good transfer and yard operations engine. B&W in 1925 bought the prototype unit, and ask to Baldwin to built more 4 units. These are used in 1957, and serve as base to some latter era Baldwin units and ALCO design.

I have something like this for some the railroads in my TL when I get to the diesel era. I'm looking to have the Diesels retain the look/Shape of Steam locomotives, I'm wondering if you could help me visualize what that might look like.

 

[TheMann]

On the subject of American passenger trains. I doubt I'll have many British diesels used for America beyond a few lines in the east. Mostly because as TheMann pointed out, the needs of American railroads would take a quick physical toll on them.

Truthfully, the CLC Type 55 uses the same basic powertrain (18-cylinder, 1,650-horsepower Napier Deltic diesels and English Electric alternators) and a modified version of the same trucks as the production Class 55. The construction of the locomotive is entirely CLC, built to the standards North American railroads need for their operations.

It should be pointed out that the CN of the Go North Universe took full advantage of its highly-skilled shop forces during the steam era and continued that during the diesel one as well, operating locomotives of many different kinds - they operated ex-Union Pacific GTELs, ex-Southern Pacific Krauss-Maffei diesel-hydraulics, the CLC Type 55s, Lots of Alco products (All CN-operated Alcos got 251-series engines and the PAs and FPA/FPB units operated by CN lasted all the way into the 1980s, with many of the PAs ending up at museums after they were replaced) and the Bombardier HR616 and HR618 (the latter using the 18-cylinder 4000-horsepower 251F power unit), before electrification in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia after the energy crisis began to reduce CN's diesel fleet.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Truthfully, the CLC Type 55 uses the same basic powertrain (18-cylinder, 1,650-horsepower Napier Deltic diesels and English Electric alternators) and a modified version of the same trucks as the production Class 55. The construction of the locomotive is entirely CLC, built to the standards North American railroads need for their operations.

It should be pointed out that the CN of the Go North Universe took full advantage of its highly-skilled shop forces during the steam era and continued that during the diesel one as well, operating locomotives of many different kinds - they operated ex-Union Pacific GTELs, ex-Southern Pacific Krauss-Maffei diesel-hydraulics, the CLC Type 55s, Lots of Alco products (All CN-operated Alcos got 251-series engines and the PAs and FPA/FPB units operated by CN lasted all the way into the 1980s, with many of the PAs ending up at museums after they were replaced) and the Bombardier HR616 and HR618 (the latter using the 18-cylinder 4000-horsepower 251F power unit), before electrification in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia after the energy crisis began to reduce CN's diesel fleet.

Nonetheless, I'd probably imagine something like the 55 working better on the NYC than say the ATSF.

 

[Lucas]

I have something like this for some the railroads in my TL when I get to the diesel era. I'm looking to have the Diesels retain the look/Shape of Steam locomotives, I'm wondering if you could help me visualize what that might look like.

What models you have in mind to make? I Can help build some for you.

In a universe when the diesel engines would be make like the steamers and even could be still use the whyte configuration system, i can see they became something like this:

Or some sort similar to the Baldwin Centercabs like the DT6-6-2000 model too...

 

[Lucas]

@Andrew Boyd @TheMann

As for CLP 55 Deltic, in both CN livery and ATSF, i imagine that look would be like this. Found on DeviantArt

CN Green and Gold

Canadian National

A.T.S.F.

 

[TheMann]

Truthfully, CLC Type 55s only have one cab and tend to have a longer, Alco PA-style nose, as well as a boxy section between the two engines for dynamic brake grids. Cool looking Deltics though.

Nonetheless, I'd probably imagine something like the 55 working better on the NYC than say the ATSF.

I actually think the opposite. The NYC services (aside from the flagship runs, of course) tended to be more stop-start, whereas ATSF passenger runs tended to have longer periods of high-speed running, the latter being better suited to the higher-RPM, higher-speed Deltics. They would be very well suited to the NYC's flagship runs (20th Century Limited, New England States, et cetera), but not as good elsewhere. ATSF Deltics would probably need backup for the big climbs on Cajon and Raton passes, however, but every locomotive would need that.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I actually think the opposite. The NYC services (aside from the flagship runs, of course) tended to be more stop-start, whereas ATSF passenger runs tended to have longer periods of high-speed running, the latter being better suited to the higher-RPM, higher-speed Deltics. They would be very well suited to the NYC's flagship runs (20th Century Limited, New England States, et cetera), but not as good elsewhere. ATSF Deltics would probably need backup for the big climbs on Cajon and Raton passes, however, but every locomotive would need that.

Any other BR diesels you could see being copied us North American Railroads.

I fancy the idea of a class 52 Western being built in the US for somewhere in Texas myself.

 

[Lucas]

Any other BR diesels you could see being copied us North American Railroads.

I fancy the idea of a class 52 Western being built in the US for somewhere in Texas myself.

I Have a idea for my B&W TL for a american version of BR Class 58 to be built and used on Texas in my Gulf, Coast and Northwestern as well by Southern and ACL.

 

[Lucas]

Truthfully, CLC Type 55s only have one cab and tend to have a longer, Alco PA-style nose, as well as a boxy section between the two engines for dynamic brake grids. Cool looking Deltics though.

I Think i would go back to drawing board. Did you have another custom diesel engines in Transport Redux TL? I Remember about some ALCO ones too if i correct

 

[Virginia Liberal]

In a universe when the diesel engines would be make like the steamers and even could be still use the whyte configuration system, i can see they became something like this:

Yes this is what I have in mind for the diesel locomotives from the start though modern times and streamlined versions for passenger rail.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

I'm guessing that direct drive diesels will work better with this configuration than diesel electrics