Quick query re: Lady Jane Grey and Guildford Dudley

HRH Cecily

HRH Cecily

I know Mary was inclined to pardon Jane and Guildford before Wyatt's Rebellion and I'm just wondering where, like what estate, they would likely have lived as an independent married couple. Or I guess where they were living prior to Jane's ascension assuming they weren't living with their parents.
 

desmirelle

AFAIK, they were living with his parents before the coup attempt. His father, after all, was running it with her folks' cooperation.
 

jb3

As Desmirelle said, they never lived together outside the watchful eye of both sets of parents. I think they barely knew each other, no? I'm not sure they would have been able to live "independently" in England had Mary been lenient and let them live. They would always be watched and probably live with either Jane's mother (if her father still revolts in TTL) or with the Dudley family who had been pardoned. Considering that Jane was just a staunch (to put it mildly) Protestant as Mary was a Catholic I can only imagine Jane's reaction to Mary' returning of England to the Catholic fold. Her life probably wouldn't have been better under Elizabeth (who never really trusted any of the Greys) especially considering that Jane HAD signed (not really under duress either, she really believed it when she signed it) letters to the entire kingdom declaring both Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate (and not in a technical way - the "b" word really) and called for their arrest (and presumed execution if her father-in-law had won).

The only way Jane and Guildford probably would have had any independent life under Mary or Elizabeth would have been to flee to the Continent. Unlike Mary, Elizabeth (who signed the death warrant for her other cousin who was actually a legitimate queen of a foreign country) I don't think Liz would have blinked at putting the former pretender on the block at the slightest sign of trouble.
 
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Evan

jb3 said:
The only way Jane and Guildford probably would have had any independent life under Mary or Elizabeth would have been to flee to the Continent.
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How about Scotland? The Reformation is just starting out there in 1553 when Jane took the throne; if we can keep her alive for four or five more years, Scotland seems like a pretty clear solution.
 

desmirelle

First, Jane and Guildford have to survive. His father has already been executed by Mary and her father joins Wyatt's rebellion and seals the fate of the young couple. How do you keep an ambitious man like the Duke of Suffolk from this? Had he not joined the rebellion, Jane and Guildford might have remained, separated but seeing one another in the yard, for several years. Guildford might even convert to Catholicism, but I don't see Jane doing it. So, he might get released after Mary weds Philip. It might be interesting, Mary keeping Jane to keep Elizabeth in line......
 

desmirelle

Since the thought just came to me, I'll answer my own question: In Henry VIII's campaign (with Anne Boleyn) to make Mary compliant, Henry seizes upon Anne's comment to "marry her to some knave" and weds her to an Englishman noble (probably the son of an Earl because a Duke might get ideas....). That butterflies Wyatt's Rebellion because that was sparked by announcement that she was wedding Philip of Spain.

What Englishman? (Keeping in mind the time period we are discussing is the announcement of the 'annulment' by Cranmer in early 1533 - April 1536.)

Only then might Jane (and Guildford) survive to flee to The Netherlands or wherever.
 

desmirelle

Serious difference: her mother never allowed people to proclaim her queen nor did she sign a document stating Mary (and Elizabeth) were bastards. This brands Jane as an usurper (her mother can be forgiven as following her husband's orders - back then, that was optional) and Guildford, as her husband, the same. Besides, her mother didn't leave until her husband was dead following 'Wyatt's Rebellion'.
 

desmirelle

WARS were fought over being the monarch of England (and bajillion other places). It's one thing to be the parent of the attempted usurper/heir named but without support, quite another to be that person. What Jane did was declare Mary the one thing she was not: illegitimate in the eyes of the 'civilized' world (Elizabeth quite a different matter); declaring Mary unfit to rule. Them's fightin' words. And Jane did not have the support of anyone other than her father, her father-in-law and, for a short time, the council. The people of England had spent years believing Mary was the eldest legitimate child of King Henry VIII, his setting his wife aside (along with Mary) was viewed as scandalous - although, since they feared their king, they did nothing - but she was the heir after Edward per most of the people, no matter what her religion (unless she 'turned Turk (Muslim)', she was next in line. Jane had no support, Edward did not have the time to promote her, the health to wed her and sire an heir (since even a daughter by the reigning kind would be ahead of Mary), or even get parliament to pass the succession. He screwed poor Jane. She never really stood a chance.

However, if you can stop her stupid father from joining Wyatt, you have a chance of (eventually) gaining her release. Then she can skip the islands for the continent without serious opposition.
 

jb3

desmirelle said:
WARS were fought over being the monarch of England (and bajillion other places). It's one thing to be the parent of the attempted usurper/heir named but without support, quite another to be that person. What Jane did was declare Mary the one thing she was not: illegitimate in the eyes of the 'civilized' world (Elizabeth quite a different matter); declaring Mary unfit to rule. Them's fightin' words. And Jane did not have the support of anyone other than her father, her father-in-law and, for a short time, the council. The people of England had spent years believing Mary was the eldest legitimate child of King Henry VIII, his setting his wife aside (along with Mary) was viewed as scandalous - although, since they feared their king, they did nothing - but she was the heir after Edward per most of the people, no matter what her religion (unless she 'turned Turk (Muslim)', she was next in line. Jane had no support, Edward did not have the time to promote her, the health to wed her and sire an heir (since even a daughter by the reigning kind would be ahead of Mary), or even get parliament to pass the succession. He screwed poor Jane. She never really stood a chance.

However, if you can stop her stupid father from joining Wyatt, you have a chance of (eventually) gaining her release. Then she can skip the islands for the continent without serious opposition.
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This is true. I personally don't believe there is a chance of Jane surviving after Henry Grey doomed his daughter by rebelling a second time against Mary (something even Jane recognized), but I do believe she would have been given a chance if he had done nothing (and especially if he done what Northumberland had done and turned coat when caught). Later centuries made her some kind of Protestant martyr and heroine "the Nine Days Queen", but she wasn't. No one outside of the Council and the Dudleys/Greys recognized her over Mary and once Mary fought back (i.e. they didn't catch and kill her in time) the jig was up. All things considering Jane DID get a raw deal - many of those Lords responsible were pardoned after turning to Mary (other like Cranmer and Ridley - who preached openly against both Mary and Elizabeth in the cathedral - would die as actual Protestant martyrs although Mary had legit cause to execute them as traitors instead - and for her reputation's sake she probably would have been better to have done so).
 

Kerney

I could buy Jane a couple months, rather simply. Get her Preggers in July. Have the baby due at the end of April. From there anyone who wants to save her (and make sure a potential heir isn't raised as an Alt Jamie i.e. Protestant mother, Catholic raised) would have more time to arrange something.
 

desmirelle

But will Jane leave her child to be raised Catholic? I suspect Guildford might, since his father and older brother were executed. But if Jane were what she's portrayed as - a do and die Protestant - she would call it heresy to do so. (And a failing as a mother.)

Like I said, Keep her father from joining Wyatt's Rebellion - either through an attack of common sense or having Henry wed Mary in-country as a declaration of her bastardy - and Jane (and Guildford) stand a chance of a reasonable happily-ever-after and an escape to Germany or The Netherlands or Switzerland.
 

Kerney

desmirelle said:
But will Jane leave her child to be raised Catholic? I suspect Guildford might, since his father and older brother were executed. But if Jane were what she's portrayed as - a do and die Protestant - she would call it heresy to do so. (And a failing as a mother.)
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If Jane were dead Mary would probably control who raised the child initially. The pregnancy would buy Jane time (2-3 months) and motivate her to escape to prevent this as opposed to otl where she was a model and genuinely repentant prisoner.
 

desmirelle

As soon as Jane has the child, it's out of her hands. No way is Mary leaving it with Jane to be a potential rival, she already got Elizabeth to deal with.

To 'save' Jane, you have to stop her father from joining Wyatt's Rebellion. Either by having Henry wed Mary to an Englishman OR some other means. Wyatt's Rebellion started when Mary's betrothal with Philip was announced and was a fear of foreign control of England.....
 

desmirelle

Oh, wait, you're suggesting Jane ESCAPES WHILE PREGNANT? No, sorry, once she's believed to be pregnant, she's under closer guard than ever and you've caused Guildford's execution to prevent another one (KISS theory). Never happen. You're better off stopping her father and not have her preggers until she's clear of England. And Mary's people would be with Jane and watching for this very thing (pregnancy).
 
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