Questions about the nobility of children who don't inherit.

[LongVin]

I'm in the process of writing a historical fiction story and something came up that I'm having trouble finding an answer for.

What happens to 2nd and 3rd and so on sons after their eldest brother inherits?

I know in most countries the title as well as the land associated with it passed only to the eldest and prior to them actually inheriting they could still be addressed as "Lord"

But, where does this leave the other brothers. Obviously, they are still noble by blood, but do they possess any titles or formalities? Or, are they just some random nobles with nothing formal associated with them?

Likewise, do daughters of say counts and dukes have any sort of title associated with their name?

Final question, at some point down the line if they don't inherit or marry into someone who inherits will they be considered commoners? Or, will the non-inheriting branch of the family always be considered noble even without having any titles.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Hum I would be careful with that in most countries. Now I am not versed awfully well in all the varied systems of nobility the world produced but the system of male primogeniture and damn the rest is fairly rare from the ones I do know something of.

So for example in a good many European systems for example all of the children would inherit the title and split the lands. Some systems only the senior heir would inherit the entailed lands but anything added during the previous incumbent's lifetime would be divided and again the titles would descend upon all. So all the sons of a Freiherr would be Freiherr and the daughters Frein though I think the daughters did not transmit the title on further.

In the British system the daughters of a duke customarily receive the courtesy title of countess but again other systems vary enormously and that is just within Europe let alone beyond.

 

[David Flin]

Of course, there's always the approach adopted by Sir John Hawkwood. Lead a mercenary army. Declare yourself noble. Defy anyone to say otherwise.

But didn't we all do that when we were young and foolish?

 

[Viriato]

In the British system, the younger son of a Duke or Marquess is addressed as as The Lord_________ and addressed in person as My Lord. The younger son of an Earl, Viscount, or Baron is The Honourable __________, and in person as Sir or Mr. Younger sons usually had to find heiresses to marry, or enter the clergy, military, or colonial administration. By the nineteenth century, the House of Commons usually consisted of younger sons of the nobility, whom often were able to obtain their own titles.

 

[Captain Seafort]

In the British system the daughters of a duke customarily receive the courtesy title of countess but again other systems vary enormously and that is just within Europe let alone beyond.

Not as far as I'm aware. Other than the generalities Viriato explained, the heir of a peer sometimes uses a subsidiary title as a courtesy title (eg the Duke of Marlborough's heir is addressed as the Marquess of Blandford, said heir's heir as the Earl of Sunderland), but that only applies in the direct line.

 

[RodentRevolution]

In the British system, the younger son of a Duke or Marquess is addressed as as The Lord_________ and addressed in person as My Lord.

Very often that is because the eldest brother holds a title as heir eg Marquis Douro for the heir to the Duke of Wellington or Earl Grovesnor for the Heir to the Duke of Westminster.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Not as far as I'm aware. Other than the generalities Viriato explained, the heir of a peer sometimes uses a subsidiary title as a courtesy title (eg the Duke of Marlborough's heir is addressed as the Marquess of Blandford, said heir's heir as the Earl of Sunderland), but that only applies in the direct line.

Fair enough.

The issue of course would be which system LongVin wants to use as there is a wide variation in approach outside of the British system.

 

[rmanoj]

This can be quite intricate, and each country will have its own system. If it's the British system you're interested in, you should look up "courtesy titles". There is a little guide at the Debrett's website.
I am not sure about this, but I think in Germany all a father's sons would inherit his title and be legally nobles, even if only the eldest son actually inherits the duchy/ county/ whatever (whereas in Britain the courtesy titles mean nothing legally and everyone apart from the actual current lord is legally a commoner); that is, the ruler of "duchy y" would be "the duke of y", whereas his brothers and cousins would be "duke x of y".

Bear in mind that such things would have been less established in earlier times, and noble sons without substantive fiefs of their own might just have been addressed as knights if they were knights (or prelates if they were prelates etc).

 

[Ciniad]

Nobility and title aren't the same thing in most of Europe all of the legitimate male child lf a Noble are Noble and the title have nothing to do with it.
For example the Napoleonic Title of count duke and prince that weren't sovereign were just title and didn't confer nobility.

 

[Riain]

I think these noble families were a bit like family companies in an age where private property and political power were closely linked. Younger sons would be given jobs within the family interest like running one estate or another or being placed in an advantageous position in the such as a commander in the military, a high position in the church or some government office that can only be undertaken by a noble.

In addition being a younger son or a daughter isn't the end of the world. Life back in the day was very chancy, designated heirs could and often did die or didn't produce children of their own so they could become their heir themselves. Or they could marry into a family with no male heirs and take on their wife's inheritance and title, because noble women can't marry riff raff beneath their rank.

Does anyone know anything about dowries? What sort of dowry would a higher ranking noblewoman bring with her into a marriage with a 2nd son of similar rank?

 

[Vuru]

Well i know that here while usually the eldest son got the throne of the entire country (not necessarily, many cases where king personally chose which son is successor), the others would be administrators of some area/province

But our nobility system was far less autismally rigid as the western one afaik

 

[chornedsnorkack]

In the British system the daughters of a duke customarily receive the courtesy title of countess but again other systems vary enormously and that is just within Europe let alone beyond.

No.
Only eldest son receives a specified courtesy title, and also eldest son of eldest son.
Younger sons are:
"Honourable", if father is baron, viscount or earl;
"Lord", if father is marquess or duke.

 

[naraic]

A lot of time it depends on the country as well as the time period.

For example during the feudal period a Earl might possess lands and have lands that a lower noble would owe him fealty for.

A portion of the lands may be given to a younger son (who may be created baron of that land) oweing fealty to his brother when he inherits the main title.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

It changed quite a bit as time went on. Generally one of three things seemed to happen in the middle ages:

• Brother/cousin launches a rebellion to install themselves as king.
• Brother/cousin gets given land to deal with and they remain content.
• Or they just disappear/die.

- BNC

 

[LongVin]

Thanks all for the input!

Anyone have any specific details on how France did it? After reading through everything I'm leaning more towards the continental system.

 

[da Racontor]

Thanks all for the input!

Anyone have any specific details on how France did it? After reading through everything I'm leaning more towards the continental system.

Early France was big on Salic Patrimony were the land would be divided between all the surviving sons, later France varied depending on the specific title I believe. An interesting note this is also how the seigneurial system in New France operated and you can still see the consequences of this in modern Quebec as many land plots are very long and narrow as a result of being divided so many time.

 

[Dave Howery]

wow, that's complicated. No wonder the French just cut all their heads off when they had their revolution... it just made things easier!
yes, I know it didn't happen like that. You're not the judge of me!

 

[chornedsnorkack]

For example during the feudal period a Earl might possess lands and have lands that a lower noble would owe him fealty for.

A portion of the lands may be given to a younger son (who may be created baron of that land) oweing fealty to his brother when he inherits the main title.

"Earl" was purely British title.
In English tradition, King early on had monopoly of creation of titles, and later on also transfers were impossible.
In France, a lot of titles remained transferrable much longer than in England. With restrictions, e. g. a commoner who bought a barony did not automatically become Baron, but a buyer who was already noble did become Baron. Thus, if a great noble in France held several titles and transferred some to his sons, these were no mere courtesy titles, but valid legal property.