Protect and Survive: A Timeline

Bordeaux is unlikely to still be around major port at the Atlantic Ocean,capital of the Aquitaine region and prefecture of the Gironde Department plus it was once used briefly as provisional capital of France when Paris was abandoned in 1940.The soviets would take such factors into account and its safer to nuke it.2-3 warheads in the 500 kt range are enough to get rid of the city.The cities most likely to still be around are the ones away from military bases,no major port or airports around,no industry of significance no regional administrative center.Bordeaux is a major port,administrative center,somewhat important airport,and to make matters worse the civil airport was once used by the USAF meaning in the event of war it would have facilities to be turned over at least in theory to the army.If Bordeaux was only an administrative center maybe it could survive the warhead destined for it malfunctioning but with all of the above not likely multiple strikes on multiple targets.Too bad since it means the wine capital of the world is gone.:(

We have already talked about this, but the Soviets can't nuke every single city in Western Europe when other targets in Asia and America have to be hit as well. You would really need a good reason to nuke a city several times in order to make sure that it gets destroyed. This is valid for Paris due to its importance, it is valid for Marseilles and probably Toulon. But if Bordeaux, Nantes and cities alongside the Atlantic Coast are targeted, I doubt that it will be by multiple warheads. I might be very wrong since we don't have reliable data on this.

Brest is a goner on the Atlantic Coast because of the naval base. Nantes/St Nazaire is a potential target due to the harbour (four times larger than Bordeaux) and the industrial facilities there chiefly the refineries. La Rochelle could be a target, but that is a big stretch in my opinion since Poitiers is an equally valid one in the region. Toulouse is almost definitely gone because of the aeronautical factories.

Almost all of France warmaking potential and military bases are in Eastern France, which is the area I expect to be the heaviest hit by conventional and nuclear strikes. The bulk of the Army and Air Force bases are there, the majority of France steelmaking capabilities are there, a significant number of car factories are there and "clearing" the area with nuclear weapons makes perfect tactical sense.

Western France will certainly be hit in places, but I would expect to have large areas including entire departements as well as their neighbours to get away scot free. This won't make France an automatic superpower, especially since some regions like the Limoges area have always been more backwards than the rest. But it will make things easier in the first few months and years after the strike, as a lot of western France is primarily agricultural in nature and any restrictions by either the CAP or the Ministry of Agriculture won't apply anymore. Changing gears will be hard in some cases, since Brittany for example is primarily a region of intensive livestock farming and not of wheat farming. But there will be more than enough land left to feed over twenty million survivors.
Electricity won't be an issue, since I expect at least five to eight nuclear reactors to remain operational along the Loire Valley and neighbouring regions. Petroleum will be very hard to come buy, but there is some amount of domestic production taking place in Aquitaine and a few small refineries which I would expect to survive. With no cars on the roads, the demand will be a lot lower than it once was, helping things considerably.
 
Maybe not every city but enough warheads to take out everything or almost everything with a population above 200 thousand they had.In the case of West Germany everything above 50 thousand would be likely.The soviet arsenal was big while it would not be used entirely targets in Europe are easier to hit due to close proximity.Based on existing data around 1984 they had around 27000 non-strategic warheads stockpiled these doesn't include ICBMs,SLBMs, and bomber launched missiles on one way trips to the US.Of these probably 30% where never used,20% malfunctioned due to various problems or missed entirely their targets.This would still leave 13000 thousand available for use.Of these excluding tactical nukes a rough guess would be 3000 thousand hit targets in Europe.France because of its status as a major NATO player albeit formally withdrawn from the military structure but not the alliance itself would get around 10% this doesn't include random hits by off course missiles and bomber aircraft whith faulty data.So something like 300+ nukes on french soil the Paris region would have received probably 15-20 of these.Military bases some of which are obviously close to cities would get maybe 200 hits(this includes civilian port and airport facilities which presumably would have been militarised due to war these maybe 30 hits the rest hitting army bases).Main industrial centers outside of Paris around 60 again these are automatically near cities.This would leave around 20 warheads for any other city of relative importance which doesn't have any army bases or major industries near it.
 
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Maybe not every city but enough warheads to take out everything or almost everything with a population above 200 thousand they had.In the case of West Germany everything above 50 thousand would be likely.

That is almost the assumption I work with concerning the FRG. :eek: However, the author has created a scenario with Britain receiving just 100 hits. Granting the French the triple number would be a bit odd, though justifiable.

I have writen a larger paragraph on the matter of nuke-counting in P&S Flatwater just a few hours ago. I am glad there is discussion on the topic and I would say the author-collective has to come up with some kind of canon.
 
Hi everyone!

.....
(On a secondary note, watched 'Threads' again yesterday - alone, in the dark. It's a horrible movie but one that can really make me feel happy - it shows me things can always be worse. Put things in a perspective...)

greetings,
Nijn
the Netherlands

after reading The Road, I kept looking out the window and repeating to myself that there was lots and lots of green stuff outside, lots of live things, life, plants, animals, etc.
 
Normal service resumes this evening.

'What are we going to do without?'


you've got a deft touch with words.

thanks to my holding back, I now have TWO updates to read, **** yeah.:cool:


edit:
sigh, I thought the sig indicating the October 6 update meant that the update posted on October 5 (as per "Eastern Standard Time," about six or eight hours before GMT!) was one of two updates. The October 6 update is the October 5 update alas.

nonetheless, it was GOOD
 
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Two words:

Sarah

Connor


When watching T2, I was impressed at how much her character reminded me of my mother. :D (Fiercely dedicated, definitely supportive, more than occasionally frightening, very competent, somewhat embarassing once in a while. Yes, that makes her like most parents, I know.)
 
When watching T2, I was impressed at how much her character reminded me of my mother. :D (Fiercely dedicated, definitely supportive, more than occasionally frightening, very competent, somewhat embarassing once in a while. Yes, that makes her like most parents, I know.)

The most telling thing about it is how much this character changed since the beginning of, and because of the events during, T1. It gives a hint at how much people can adapt to grim situations they were not accustumed to.

My mother preached me to "come home from school AT ONCE if any mention of war is being made" (during the 1985 Libya crisis, IIRC, I was 7 years old then). I have no idea what ideas she had, but I am still too afraid to ask.
 
I can't understand only 100 hits for Britain.I mean it assumes a ridiculous failure rate.The soviets might have had problems but to be unable to deliver 250-300 nukes for Britain seems like streching it.According to existing data they had over 20000 nukes available for use against targets within a 2500 km radius.The remaining 10000 would be largely for the US,Canada,Australia,New Zealand and other places far away.If we assume 10000 used for NATO in Europe and presume a 5000 of these would not reach their targets due to various causes although of these around 1500-2000 would still hit something but miss badly.That leaves 5000 reaching targets if we substract 1500 tactical nukes that means 3500 hitting targets away from the front lines.Only 100 of these hit targets in Britain???A nuclear power with a strong conventional force??Add to this ample warning time and preparation getting nukes out of storage and everything it would be impossible to take them by surprise.I mean they got off too lightly.I would triple or quadruple it.Anyone wishing to check this can look at http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datainx.asp exactly how accurate I don't know but without an official russian paper showing just how many they had its the best we have.
 
The most telling thing about it is how much this character changed since the beginning of, and because of the events during, T1. It gives a hint at how much people can adapt to grim situations they were not accustumed to.

My mother preached me to "come home from school AT ONCE if any mention of war is being made" (during the 1985 Libya crisis, IIRC, I was 7 years old then). I have no idea what ideas she had, but I am still too afraid to ask.



too awesome.
 
I can't understand only 100 hits for Britain.I mean it assumes a ridiculous failure rate.The soviets might have had problems but to be unable to deliver 250-300 nukes for Britain seems like streching it.According to existing data they had over 20000 nukes available for use against targets within a 2500 km radius.The remaining 10000 would be largely for the US,Canada,Australia,New Zealand and other places far away.If we assume 10000 used for NATO in Europe and presume a 5000 of these would not reach their targets due to various causes although of these around 1500-2000 would still hit something but miss badly.That leaves 5000 reaching targets if we substract 1500 tactical nukes that means 3500 hitting targets away from the front lines.Only 100 of these hit targets in Britain???A nuclear power with a strong conventional force??Add to this ample warning time and preparation getting nukes out of storage and everything it would be impossible to take them by surprise.I mean they got off too lightly.I would triple or quadruple it.Anyone wishing to check this can look at http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datainx.asp exactly how accurate I don't know but without an official russian paper showing just how many they had its the best we have.


maybe the Soviets were slow-ish on the draw?

maybe on some level they were "holding back" to leave some reserve?
 

Macragge1

Banned
I can't remember where I've talked about 100 warheads hitting the UK; certainly, I visualised at least double that hitting the mainland - one must bear in mind that several that should have hit military bases or even cities will have gone well wide and hit somewhere else, but obviously they have still done severe damage; or, the amount of hits on cities may not have been tabulated correctly by CHANTICLEER or whoever.
 
In my opinion West Germany would have around 500 nukes hiting away from the front lines,around 300 maybe more for France and Britain at a minimum 250 assuming everything that can go wrong does.Italy,Spain,Turkey,Denmark around 100,Holland,Belgium,Greece,Norway above 65 but below 90.Other countries in NATO somewhere around 300 and neutrals maybe 40.This would give somewhere around 2100-2200 and you still have tactical nukes going off with abandon in West Germany,Italy,Austria,Northern Greece and Turkey.As said the soviets had more than enough nukes to suffer 50% losses and still nuke most of everything they needed to nuke add to this the fact that this is not a surprise NATO first strike so they would have their arsenal readied for use,nukes brought out of storage missiles put on a hair trigger alert.A NATO first strike even a successful one would be unlikely in the extreme to take out more than 30% of the soviet arsenal.
 
Maybe not every city but enough warheads to take out everything or almost everything with a population above 200 thousand they had.In the case of West Germany everything above 50 thousand would be likely.The soviet arsenal was big while it would not be used entirely targets in Europe are easier to hit due to close proximity.Based on existing data around 1984 they had around 27000 non-strategic warheads stockpiled these doesn't include ICBMs,SLBMs, and bomber launched missiles on one way trips to the US.Of these probably 30% where never used,20% malfunctioned due to various problems or missed entirely their targets.This would still leave 13000 thousand available for use.Of these excluding tactical nukes a rough guess would be 3000 thousand hit targets in Europe.France because of its status as a major NATO player albeit formally withdrawn from the military structure but not the alliance itself would get around 10% this doesn't include random hits by off course missiles and bomber aircraft whith faulty data.So something like 300+ nukes on french soil the Paris region would have received probably 15-20 of these.Military bases some of which are obviously close to cities would get maybe 200 hits(this includes civilian port and airport facilities which presumably would have been militarised due to war these maybe 30 hits the rest hitting army bases).Main industrial centers outside of Paris around 60 again these are automatically near cities.This would leave around 20 warheads for any other city of relative importance which doesn't have any army bases or major industries near it.

What is your criteria for making such sweeping statements, which actually don't even apply in the case what we know has been targetted on the British Isles? Targeting is not a game where you target cities above a certain population level, just because they have said population level. Strategic value is more important than raw population alone.

I can't understand only 100 hits for Britain.I mean it assumes a ridiculous failure rate.The soviets might have had problems but to be unable to deliver 250-300 nukes for Britain seems like streching it.According to existing data they had over 20000 nukes available for use against targets within a 2500 km radius.The remaining 10000 would be largely for the US,Canada,Australia,New Zealand and other places far away.If we assume 10000 used for NATO in Europe and presume a 5000 of these would not reach their targets due to various causes although of these around 1500-2000 would still hit something but miss badly.That leaves 5000 reaching targets if we substract 1500 tactical nukes that means 3500 hitting targets away from the front lines.Only 100 of these hit targets in Britain???A nuclear power with a strong conventional force??Add to this ample warning time and preparation getting nukes out of storage and everything it would be impossible to take them by surprise.I mean they got off too lightly.I would triple or quadruple it.Anyone wishing to check this can look at http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datainx.asp exactly how accurate I don't know but without an official russian paper showing just how many they had its the best we have.

What you don't seem to realise is that there is a huge difference between having warheads in storage and actually using said warheads in a meaningful manner. The Soviet Union does not have enough planes or missiles to use its entire nuclear arsenal, let's be pretty clear about this.
A significant proportion of the 7000 or so ICBM warheads (quoting the number your refer), will be used to target other ICBMs chiefly in the United States. How exactly this will be done we have no idea, but I think it is a given that at least 10% of the ICBMs will be used to destroy other ICBMs.
Some of the missiles will malfunction, not launch or self destroy, it could be anywhere between 1% to 10%.
Part of the missiles will be used to keep a second strike capability, how many we don't know but some will be kept aside that's almost for sure.
 
The estimates for France are simple,main target would be Paris including airports close to it and assume 2 hits on average for every target of interest.The nukes for the french military are based on the assumption that the soviets would be primarily interested in taking it out and eliminating a threat to the Soviet Union hence over half are destined for the army,the remainder based on the idea that they would devote some interest to eliminating main warmaking industries so as to stop the threat once and for all.Not knowing how long a was lasts you have to assume the worst.While its true you don't target cities just because they are big industries tend to be close to metropolitan areas,also many military bases are close to cities so they didn't target Toulon because its Toulon they targeted it for its naval base.
As for the total number of nukes in Europe its only a small part of the total soviet arsenal.I've already taken into account failures in flight,destroyed before use and missing the target by a wide margin.For every warhead that eventually hit its target on average I assumed one that didn't.Seems like a reasonable fail rate 50% anything bigger and we're already assuming very high levels of soviet incompetence taking into account ample warning time and the fact that they would be mobilising every warhead they could have for possible use by any means necessary.With ample warning time you could go the extra mile and do whatever it takes to get as many ready as possible.
Of course we don't know exactly what the soviet strategy was byt it seems reasonable to assume that they could get at least half their arsenal to reach its target especially in 1984 when they had decades of experience with planning and preparing something like this.Add to this the shorter distances between the Soviet Union and Western Europe unlike the US.
 
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Part of the missiles will be used to keep a second strike capability, how many we don't know but some will be kept aside that's almost for sure.


that's right!

to my layman's view, it's rare when someone who has a lot of something to begin with doesn't keep something in reserve for such a significant undertaking.


that and a relatively small-ish country (relative to USSR, USA) is going to suffer plenty with one hundred thermonuclear weapons deposited upon it.

(and as MacCragge noted, it probably wasn't "merely" one hundred nukes on Great Britain.)
 
I can't remember where I've talked about 100 warheads hitting the UK; certainly, I visualised at least double that hitting the mainland - one must bear in mind that several that should have hit military bases or even cities will have gone well wide and hit somewhere else, but obviously they have still done severe damage; or, the amount of hits on cities may not have been tabulated correctly by CHANTICLEER or whoever.

I apologize for having understood you wrong. Finding out things discussed earlier on the thread is a nightmare to me and I always had this approximation of almost 100 in mind.

In my opinion West Germany would have around 500 nukes hiting away from the front lines,around 300 maybe more for France and Britain at a minimum 250 assuming everything that can go wrong does.Italy,Spain,Turkey,Denmark around 100,Holland,Belgium,Greece,Norway above 65 but below 90.Other countries in NATO somewhere around 300 and neutrals maybe 40.This would give somewhere around 2100-2200 and you still have tactical nukes going off with abandon in West Germany,Italy,Austria,Northern Greece and Turkey.As said the soviets had more than enough nukes to suffer 50% losses and still nuke most of everything they needed to nuke add to this the fact that this is not a surprise NATO first strike so they would have their arsenal readied for use,nukes brought out of storage missiles put on a hair trigger alert.A NATO first strike even a successful one would be unlikely in the extreme to take out more than 30% of the soviet arsenal.

That's a bit above my "optimistic" assumptions, but not so much. I can "live" with that.

I worked with 500 ground zeros in FRG and GDR combined, but not taking multi-targetting much into account.
 
As weird as it may seem hitting France with around 300 nukes is not enough to completely destroy it.Its just enough to take out most targets of interest but from what I can see it would still leave something behind.In fact to completely destroy France beyond even a slim hope of survival you need around 450-500 nukes same for Britain.West Germany,Holland,Denmark, Turkey ,Greece and Belgium are beyond recovery the surviving belgian government doesn't really matter since they have next to nothing left.Spain and Italy are touch and go maybe maybe not it depends on who do surviving troops swear allegiance to.Norway might survive in the longer term but barely.Proportionally Denmark is among the worst to come out of this.Small size subject to a full soviet nuclear strike.Nothing beyond a few villages and small towns remains here.Its basically West Germany with a different name.From the neutrals Sweden would be somewhat ok but they have to deal with fallout from Denmark affecting the southern part of the country,Austria is gone,Finland don't know no intel so far but it surely got hit.The Swiss could recover but their economy won't be back to anything resembling normal for a long time,the irish have a chance but no irish miracle if anything extremist tendencies here will likely flare up.By beyond recovery I mean whatever country/countries appear here they will bear little resemblance to what came before,meaning a place like Denmark is gone for good.
 
I've just read this over the last few days and may I just say thanks for terrifying the ever living crap outta me the only small comfort was I was born two years after the bombs so I doubt I'd be alive in this one. Although I thought it was bad I was born 4 months after Chernobyl this just shows how much worse things could be.



Please keep up the excellent narrative so I can be terrified some more :D
 
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