Pragmatic Wunderwaffe
- Thread starter ArmchairSamurai
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- world war ii wunderwaffe
Ian_W
Banned
You're going to need to use something for a recon vehicle. Might as well avoid the delays from upgrading those factories, and then going 'Shit, we need a recon vehicle'.
I know this is a Wonderwaffe thread, and therefore this thinking is utterly antiethical to it, but how about 'Something thats good enough, now, and in great quantity'.
Deleted member 1487
That's when superior gadgets can matter, as they can make one well trained man more effective than several less well equipped men. Say having an assault rifle vs. a bolt action rifle.
Duh.
McPherson
Banned
Or you can flip it. USN aviators like John Thach were given an "average" plane, the Wildcat, and told make do when the IJNAS showed up with Sakai and the A6M. Thach applied fundamentals and adapted some clever Nationalist Chinese aerial tactics that they, the Chinese, developed in the China War to handle the superior IJA and IJN aerial tech when they faced them in their crappy Soviet "lend lease" aircraft.
Thach Weave and USN deflection shooting, some applied pre-war fundamentals, went a long way to even the playing field against superior Zeroes flown by pilots stuck with outdated tactics. The IJNAS learned of course, but by then the USN had killed their pilots and turned off the oil. Hellcats were parity and that was during the Murder Year.
And during Guadalcanal, 9 months into the war, Marines, with inferior infantry weapons had to apply "fundamentals" to hang on until they outkilled their superior equipped IJA enemies. People forget that at that stage of the war, it was the Japanese who were better supplied and equipped. Tables turned in early 1943, but September and October clear into December; were NTG around Henderson Field.
Deleted member 1487
In terms of things like tanks, I think yes the Germans would have been served better by avoiding things like Tigers and Panthers and instead developing a 35 ton tank with an 88mm gun and a StuG based on it's chassis as well as an SP artillery and SPAAG variant. Same with working on the Me109Z instead of a twin engine fighter.
Basically get the E-50 etc. standardized chasses in place pre-war and simplify all manufacturing. Then do war manufacturing from day 1.
Real wonderwaffe in this case might be the underground factories and getting lots more synthetic fuel available instead of waiting to expand production into the mid-war and late war...
Real wonderwaffe in this case might be the underground factories and getting lots more synthetic fuel available instead of waiting to expand production into the mid-war and late war...
Ian_W
Banned
How about standardising on the Pz IV chassis, and building an open-topped, lightly armoured variant mounting a long-range high-velocity gun ?
Basically, Sherman-and-Hellcat
Deleted member 1487
Like the Nashorn?How about standardising on the Pz IV chassis, and building an open-topped, lightly armoured variant mounting a long-range high-velocity gun ?
Basically, Sherman-and-Hellcat
I don't think the Germans could have afforded a light open top turreted TD like the US could (M36 Jackson). Same reason they used M4 Shermans for infantry support, while Germany and Russia relied on cheaper fixed gun AFVs like the above.
thaddeus
Donor
thanks for postings! circling back to this topic, do you think the rifle grenade launcher would still be the more likely equipment to deploy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiessbecher
just wondering if a nipolit grenade could have been developed, lighter, with increased range, or does it become more inaccurate? (meaning have the rifle grenade launcher by 1941, and lighter weight nipolit grenades"eclipsing" the panzerfaust?)
not finding a good article or book about nipolit? (spelling?) so do not know if its development was pure accident or the timeline?
For a recon vehicle, the Heer has one with an incredibly catchy name Schwerer Panzerspähwagen Sonderkraftfahrzeug 234 (Heavy Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle Special Vehicle 234), an eight-wheeled large armoured car. There was the "Puma" variant with a long 50mm HV gun, a version with a short 75mm LV gun and a radio version.
I think a better approach for rifle grenades would be to do away with the Schiessbecher and instead adopt a spigot-type design like the postwar ENERGA, simply because it makes launching an effective HEAT warhead much easier without the constraint of the 30mm tube. Something like that could conceivably negate the need for the Panzerfaust entirely. Equip your line infantry with K98s (or better yet, G43/K43s) and several AT grenades per squad, forget the Panzerfaust and focus development on the Panzerschreck or similar crew-served weapons.
I mean, inventing the cruise missile, and the anti-ship missile and the ballistic missile were all pretty practical.
Meh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unmanned_aerial_vehicles
The ballistic missile is the stand out there, but so resource intensive in relation to results it takes nukes to make them practical.
As you can see from the link the English and Americans were playing with remotely controlled aircraft from WWI. Clearly they could do everything the Germans managed. That the Germans put them into frontline service shows their desperation and counter measures like jamming were rapidly adopted showing why the Allies were not using them in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unmanned_aerial_vehicles
The ballistic missile is the stand out there, but so resource intensive in relation to results it takes nukes to make them practical.
As you can see from the link the English and Americans were playing with remotely controlled aircraft from WWI. Clearly they could do everything the Germans managed. That the Germans put them into frontline service shows their desperation and counter measures like jamming were rapidly adopted showing why the Allies were not using them in the first place.
SwampTiger
Banned
All this talk of rifle grenades and small mortars reminds of another weapon available but not used by either side. The Federal Labs Gas Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Riot_Gun
Available in the early 30's in 37 mm. Used in several movies of the time. Every major gunmaker could build a break action shotgun. Just add an explosive shell.
Available in the early 30's in 37 mm. Used in several movies of the time. Every major gunmaker could build a break action shotgun. Just add an explosive shell.
Zen9
Banned
One of the things that keeps cropping up in relation to Germany before and during WWII is the complexity and cost of many of even their best systems.
This is sapping their potential both in terms of production and sustainability of such.
Example being the G43 and earlier SLRs , fiddly complex and too much high tolerance machining.
Getting your hands on the Polish SLR and just refining that would cut costs, improve reliability and expand capability of the ordinary soldier.
Enigma was a wonderful system but let down by a few critical simplifications and a lack of disiplin in it's use.
German efforts in jet engines were let down by lack of fuel and lack of high temp materials. Keeping it just a research effort would've been more rational.
Their nuclear program was doomed by lack of resources and flawed thinking. Wasting talent and resources.
it goes on and on and seems systemic. Partly a result of NAZI government and partly because Germany pursyes engineering excellence.
The latter driven by the need to overcome that 'made in China' reputation early German manufacturing inevitably gained.
This is sapping their potential both in terms of production and sustainability of such.
Example being the G43 and earlier SLRs , fiddly complex and too much high tolerance machining.
Getting your hands on the Polish SLR and just refining that would cut costs, improve reliability and expand capability of the ordinary soldier.
Enigma was a wonderful system but let down by a few critical simplifications and a lack of disiplin in it's use.
German efforts in jet engines were let down by lack of fuel and lack of high temp materials. Keeping it just a research effort would've been more rational.
Their nuclear program was doomed by lack of resources and flawed thinking. Wasting talent and resources.
it goes on and on and seems systemic. Partly a result of NAZI government and partly because Germany pursyes engineering excellence.
The latter driven by the need to overcome that 'made in China' reputation early German manufacturing inevitably gained.
thaddeus
Donor
yes, @wiking highlighted the French 50mm and Soviet 37mm mortars that could have been adopted/adapted for this.
my speculation was on the development cycle if they start, where they did start with the Schiessbecher and what could have been done with that? could they have married that launcher to nipolit shells or other?
Deleted member 1487
Since IOTL it was, clearly.
No idea TBH.
Same here, I've found a few things, but info is sparse. I don't think it was by accident, I seems to have been part of a program to find a use for 'expired' artillery propellants.
Deleted member 1487
Huh? The G43 was simple; the earlier ones were complex because of the muzzle gas trap and it was quickly withdrawn from service. The US also used their gas trap Garand until 1940 as well. The G43 was noted by the US as stamped metal and crude compared to their Garand.
The Polish SLR is actually more complex than the G43 and we have no idea of how reliable it would have been anyway, as it was just a prototype; the Germans captured it but didn't decide to run with it or the French MAS40, which was quite simple.
As were just about all systems, it's not like the Germans didn't break into similar Allied systems the same way, they just had less opportunities to capture Allied systems and code books. BTW the reason the Enigma was ultimately broken and rebroken was the capture of codebooks and improved machines. The Lorenz Cipher was the big one and that was only through exploiting operator error and the cryptanalysis of that system was pure genius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_cipher#Cryptanalysis