PQ 17.5

24 May 1941, - The failed hunt for the Bismarck
Why are you starting a new timeline when you are already working on four other open timelines and have another suspended, I hear you ask? Are you mad?

Well, the later question has been asked once of twice before....however, there IS a reason. I'm going overseas to Europe on the 20th August and will not return until the 19th October. So, no writing during that time. Although I am a fair way through my History of the Second HMAS Australia timeline, as well as my Salvos from Savo timeline, I doubt I can finish either before I go, although both will not be too far from the end. I reckon both will be finished quite quickly when I return, dropping my timelines that are active down to two.....which should be enough....but I always do love a naval timeline, so..... here we are. I will be only putting the one post up as a "teaser" I suppose you could call it, only really getting started when I return and the other two naval timelines are (quickly) finished. I may put up an order of battle before I go, or not, as time permits. Very little change for OTL there, aisde from the limited additions as shown.

Johnboy


24 May 1941, battleship Bismarck, North Sea

Both men were still in shock from the engagement that had sunk the Hood. A good form of shock, but still in shock. It was Luetjens that was the first to speak. “Whether to go on is the question.”

“Are you interested in my opinion sir,” asked Lindemann, the mighty battleship’s captain.
“Of course, I am interested in your opinion, my dear Lindemann. So, forward or back?”
“Return, sir.”
“Why?”
“Well, we have met two British capital ships and routed them. It establishes our superiority. There is nothing heavy enough behind us to obstruct our passage.”

“I agree,” said the Admiral, “except in regards our turning back.”
“I don’t understand” voiced the ship’s pragmatic captain.
“We are superior to the British, we have proved that. This means we can go ahead, to..” said Luetjens, who had started to cough.
Yet another delicate cough interrupted the conversation. It was the senior engineer. “Yes Commander, what is it?” asked Lindemann.
“I am sorry to interrupt sir, but…”
“Go on man.”
“The Admiral…”

Lindemann turned around and looked at his superior. He had stopped coughing, but now his face was puce, his chest heaving, attempting to take in air as he clutched at his chest.

More shocks, thought Lindemann, some 30 minutes later, as he watched the Admiral’s body slipped int the sealed leather bag. They were still at a delicate stage. Finally, he turned back to his engineer.

“Go on with your report.”
“We were hit by a shell from one of the the enemy battleships.”
“I am aware, yet the machinery is undamaged and we are still at 25 knots.”
“It is not the engines, sir, it is the port fuel tanks. We are leaking oil.
“Much?”

“Not a lot, sir, but the oil remaining in the tank is unusable. Contaminated by seawater.”
“What quantity are we talking about?”
“200 tons I would say.”
“Just the one tank?”
“Yes sir.”
“Thank you, Commander, that is all.”

So, now the decision was his. The Admiral had wished to go on, but he could see little sense in that. The oil slick would advertise their position to any showing ships, aircraft or submarines, a sure indication they had passed that way. At 0712, the battleship Bismarck rounded on her pursuers, allowing the cruiser Prinz Eugen to continue on into the Atlantic, but to little success, the cruiser being struck by a torpedo launched from a Swordfish from HMS Victorious. Crippled, she was finished off by the battleship Ramillies and the light cruisers Birmingham, Edinburgh, Aurora and Kenya on the 26th of May 1941.

Bismarck was to fight another engagement with HMS Prince of Wales, but only one of brief duration. Each ship gained one hit on the other, with the German ship using the sea mist and fog, as well as a low scudding clouds, so slip past the British ships and return to Norway, reaching Bergen just after midnight on the 27th of May.

She left on the 1st June to return to Germany, escorted by three torpedo boats. Hit by two torpedoes from HMS Seawolf, she was to limp into Kiel on the 5th by way of Copenhagen. She was eventually repaired by DSM in Bremen from July 1941 to January 1942, the length of time extended by damage from an RAF raid in September 1941. She completed around the same time as the previously suspended heavy cruiser Seydlitz, the success of Bismarck against Hood igniting more enthusiasm in surface warships, despite the loss of Prinz Eugen.

After working up, she, along with the heavy cruiser, joined her sister ship in Norway.
 
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23 June 1942, - Hitler takes off the handbreak
23 June 1942, Sankt Peter-Ording, Nazi Germany

Charlotte Walter, nee Albrecht was not sure why she was going to Bremen, really. Was it boredom? Yes, her friend Liesel had her first baby quite late in life and would appreciate seeing her old friend, she supposed. Yes, she would appreciate the more cosmopolitan nature of Bremen. There was all that. However, it was mainly boredom. With her husband away and her children visiting her parents, she would and could appreciate the chance to have a little adventure.

2345, 24 June 1942, Bremen, Nazi Germany

The air raid caught the two women three blocks from home. Charlotte Walter increased her pace, wishing she had not worn such high heeled shoes. The stick of incendiaries from the Mosquito acting as a pathfinder for the 1000 bomber raid landed only 20 meters from the struggling woman, with predictable results.

0830, 25 June 1942, Wolf Lair, East Prussia, Nazi Germany

Hitler was fond of his naval adjutant, Alwin-Broder Albrecht, or as fond of him as a man like Hitler could be of anyone. No wonder the man was upset, his twin sister killed in yet another raid by the RAF terror flyers. Yet another form of British terrorism, like that in Bohemia, where the British had arranged the assassination of Heydrich only recently. How he longed to make them pay. He considered for a moment. It was time the Kriegsmarine that Albrecht represented performed a victory for Germany. He considered, before finally saying to Albrecht. "We will make them pay, young man, oh yes we will."

The British could not be struck on their island, no, but there were other ways. With the Eastern struggle at it's zenith, the convoys through to Russia were a lifeline for the Soviets. Whilst he had always been bold on land, he knew all to well he was a coward at sea. Yet...he was angry. Plus, the need was there. If this was to occur, he needed to divorce himself from the project completely, otherwise he would likely change his mind. What could go wrong with the two most powerful battleships afloat at sea? One the conqeror of the Hood. At 1212, Admiral Otto Schniewind and the Naval High Command in Kiel received a teleprinter message from Hitler divesting them of the need to obtain the Fuhrer's permission before committing heavy units to battle and authorizing Operation
Rösselsprung.

1414, 25 June 1942, Kiel, Nazi Germany

Kapitän zur See Friedrich Hüffmeier's light cruiser Koln was expecting to deploy to Trondheim in Norway within a week. His departure had now been brought forward to a departure tomorrow at dusk, when, in conjunction with the destroyers Z15 and Z16, she would make the dangerous run through to Norway.

1516, 25 June 1942, Erprobungskommando 177, Rostock, Nazi Germany

This was crazy, thought Major Hans Mons. They wanted to form a Staffel using his pilots and all 12 He 177 A-1/U2 variants and send them to Norway for "possible combat testing under field conditions". It was final proof, in his own mind, of the Air Ministry's final break with reality. He had been fighting bureaucrats for some time in regards the unreliability of the He-177's engines. Now they wanted to commit them to long distance flying.
 
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Which sources are you using?
For what? The order of battle? There are any number that give the composition of both forces. I am not using David Irvings composition, if that is what you mean, even though it was written before he lost the plot.
 
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0830, 25 June 1942, Wolf Lair, East Prussia, Nazi Germany
....
With the Eastern struggle at it's zenith in Stalingrad...
The German summer 1942 offensive began on 28 June. The Germans were then 400 km from Stalingrad, which they reached on 23 August.

Also, If Charlotte has a husband (and children), why is she referred to by the same last name as her brother?
 
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It was written before he was discovered to have lost the plot. Later analyses have shown it to be deficient in many of the manners of his more well known output. I’m glad you’re not touching that :)
 
It was written before he was discovered to have lost the plot. Later analyses have shown it to be deficient in many of the manners of his more well known output. I’m glad you’re not touching that :)
I do have a few of his books, up to and including his 1977 Hitler autobiography. Even his earlier works have deficiencies. I mean I can't talk, but then again I am only an amateur writer, not a full time historian and writer.
 
Very interesting . Watched

I had thought of trying to write an alternate PQ17 battle but my laziness and indecisiveness mean you've ninja'ed me.

I look forward very much to your take on the issue. Very elegant way of forcing a change in the orders for the Kriegsmarine to force a surface action. (IF that's what you intend.) Mine was much clunkier.
 
I wasn't meaning to imply that you celebrated any of his works, and certainly not his politics.

I just noted your attention to detail in other threads, and that you have a grognard's attitude (in the best and most virtuous sense). I suspected you might not be aware that the criticism by historians of Irving's deficiencies and inventions including his earlier works to the point of his being considered unreliable and ficticious due to methodological failings (as opposed to the political content of his inventions, which many people oppose for other reasons).

Also I was excited to see someone do PQ17, because of the dismantling of Irving's work as part of the historical profession's policing of itself means that research on PQ17 has a significance for me beyond the individual action.

yours,
Sam R.
 
Allied Order of Battle PQ 17.5

11 He-177 large bombers

NOTE: Many of the bombers listed are in the South of Norway, so not all will be available to use against PQ17(.5)
That should be heavy bombers not large bombers but then again with the He-177 I guess it is a bit of a grey spot, "it's a twin engine bomber, no it's a four engine bomber, no it's both". :rolleyes: :)
 
I wasn't meaning to imply that you celebrated any of his works, and certainly not his politics.

I just noted your attention to detail in other threads, and that you have a grognard's attitude (in the best and most virtuous sense). I suspected you might not be aware that the criticism by historians of Irving's deficiencies and inventions including his earlier works to the point of his being considered unreliable and ficticious due to methodological failings (as opposed to the political content of his inventions, which many people oppose for other reasons).

Also I was excited to see someone do PQ17, because of the dismantling of Irving's work as part of the historical profession's policing of itself means that research on PQ17 has a significance for me beyond the individual action.

yours,
Sam R.
Thanks. I certainly don't agree with his politics. He is a Class A Muppet. It can be easy to be seduced by "facts" that turn out not to be. I remember reading Summers and Mangold's "File on the Tsar". I think the fact that I secretly wanted it to be true made it very easy to believe it's erroneous conclusions.
Very interesting . Watched

I had thought of trying to write an alternate PQ17 battle but my laziness and indecisiveness mean you've ninja'ed me.

I look forward very much to your take on the issue. Very elegant way of forcing a change in the orders for the Kriegsmarine to force a surface action. (IF that's what you intend.) Mine was much clunkier.
Cheers. If you have any thoughts, happy to hear them here via DM. Sorry if I have gotten in first. Yes, a surface action will occur. It would be a little bit of a boring T/L without one, I fear.
That should be heavy bombers not large bombers but then again with the He-177 I guess it is a bit of a grey spot, "it's a twin engine bomber, no it's a four engine bomber, no it's both". :rolleyes: :)
True dat. They were neither fish nor fowl.
 
I'm going overseas to Europe on the 20th August and will not return until the 19th October.

Who the hell signed off on that?

Well if you feel that's acceptable (where you going in Europe)
 
I'm going overseas to Europe on the 20th August and will not return until the 19th October.

Who the hell signed off on that?

Well if you feel that's acceptable (where you going in Europe)
Trip was originally meant to happen May 2020. Then came the thing that must not be named. Put if off to 2021. Insanity still happening. Now it’s finally on.

So, going to - Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Fly to Poland and three days in Warsaw. Fly to UK. Ten days self drive there. Fly to Italy. Meet my daughter, who will have been skiing in Switzerland for a week. Also meet my son. Twelve days in Italy together. Fly to Malta. My daughter goes home. Fly to Spain. Ten days there. My son goes home. Fly to Istanbul. Four days there. Fly to Singapore. Four days there then home.

Looking forward to it.
 
Why are you starting a new timeline when you are already working on four other open timelines and have another suspended, I hear you ask? Are you mad?
Oh, thank you master of naval timelines for giving us another. But four? I only find savo and Australia. What are the other two named? I can not find when i searched your post history either
 
Oh, thank you master of naval timelines for giving us another. But four? I only find savo and Australia. What are the other two named? I can not find when i searched your post history either
One other is in pre 1900 called Under the Southern Cross I Stand a Sprig of Wattle in my hand.

The Second is in Alien Space Bats and is set in my Consequences of an Errant Shell world, but in 2020/21.
 
Trip was originally meant to happen May 2020. Then came the thing that must not be named. Put if off to 2021. Insanity still happening. Now it’s finally on.

So, going to - Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Fly to Poland and three days in Warsaw. Fly to UK. Ten days self drive there. Fly to Italy. Meet my daughter, who will have been skiing in Switzerland for a week. Also meet my son. Twelve days in Italy together. Fly to Malta. My daughter goes home. Fly to Spain. Ten days there. My son goes home. Fly to Istanbul. Four days there. Fly to Singapore. Four days there then home.

Looking forward to it.
Nice.

Where are you planning to go in the UK?

Hope you spend a day at Portsmouth historical dockyard?
 
Nice.

Where are you planning to go in the UK?

Hope you spend a day at Portsmouth historical dockyard?
Portsmouth is on the agenda. Tank museum at bovington as well. Sadly, my fellow travellers have no interest so not sure how long I’ll have before boredom sets in.
 
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