I think that's the balancing act of this "what if". Trying to get Joy Division to create some butterflies (especially in the USA) while accounting for Ian's declining health. it's a fair call to say that he just couldn't keep on touring and touring, but a few well-located live appearances in the USA is all it could take to influence some key American alt-rock musicians in a different direction to OTL.
Post Punk WI: Ian Curtis lives?
- Thread starter Romantic Nihilist
- Start date
I think that's the balancing act of this "what if". Trying to get Joy Division to create some butterflies (especially in the USA) while accounting for Ian's declining health. it's a fair call to say that he just couldn't keep on touring and touring, but a few well-located live appearances in the USA is all it could take to influence some key American alt-rock musicians in a different direction to OTL.
I agree with Flippikat on the balancing act; obviously, had Ian Curtis lived past 18 May 1980, odds are by the time they had finished that planned U.S. tour, Ian probably would've had to have stepped aside just so that he could deal with it all - the epilepsy, the depression (I've heard some say Ian suffered from bipolar disorder/manic depression, but I've never been able to confirm it), his failing marriage to Deborah (and the affair he was having w/Annik Honore at the time), all of it was bearing down on him and it's not surprising he did kill himself in OTL.
The likely butterflies that would've appeared from a Joy Division tour in mid-to-late 1980 will depend on a few things, namely (1)where they toured in North America (there was at least 1 date in OTL in Canada besides the U.S. appearances), (2)who sees them perform/who they run into (the fictional Henry Rollins snippet in an earlier post being one example) and (3)what Ian does after they return to Britain following the tour. Of course, there could be other butterflies, Malice, but those three come to mind here.
Hmm.. a little searching brings up a page of dates & cities based on Joy Division manager Rob Gretton's notebook.
http://www.joydiv.org/cancel.htm
21st - 23rd May 1980 (3 nights): Hurrah - New York
25th May 1980 The Edge nightclub, Toronto
26th May 1980 Bookies, Detroit
27th May 1980: Tuts - W.Belmont, Chicago
(28th May 1980 Merlyn's Madison, Wisconsin - contingency in case 26th May show was cancelled)
29th May 1980 Duffy's, Minneapolis (With Husker Du
31st May 9:30 Club, Washington D.C.
1st June 1980 Tier 3 - New York
3rd and 4th June American Indian Centre, San Francisco (Dead Kennedys opening on one of these shows)
7th June 1980 Madame Wong's, Los Angeles
8th June 1980 Flipper's Roller Boogie Palace, Los Angeles
9th June 1980 The Starwood, Northwest corner of Santa Monica Blvd. and Crescent Heights Ave - Los Angeles
So no Pacific Northwest dates, and a very crowded schedule. That's not counting some of the other locations at the end of the page seemingly have no firm dates attached to them. Very interesting to see Husker Du & Dead Kennedys slated as opening acts. A little influence rubbing off on those bands would make for some interesting music.
If Black Flag are support on any of those dates, they'd probably have Dez Cadena on vocals (Ron Reyes had just quit about that time), so any meeting with Henry Rollins would likely be at the D.C. show, although I'm not sure his band at the time (State of Alert) would've been in contention to be an opening act.
http://www.joydiv.org/cancel.htm
21st - 23rd May 1980 (3 nights): Hurrah - New York
25th May 1980 The Edge nightclub, Toronto
26th May 1980 Bookies, Detroit
27th May 1980: Tuts - W.Belmont, Chicago
(28th May 1980 Merlyn's Madison, Wisconsin - contingency in case 26th May show was cancelled)
29th May 1980 Duffy's, Minneapolis (With Husker Du
31st May 9:30 Club, Washington D.C.
1st June 1980 Tier 3 - New York
3rd and 4th June American Indian Centre, San Francisco (Dead Kennedys opening on one of these shows)
7th June 1980 Madame Wong's, Los Angeles
8th June 1980 Flipper's Roller Boogie Palace, Los Angeles
9th June 1980 The Starwood, Northwest corner of Santa Monica Blvd. and Crescent Heights Ave - Los Angeles
So no Pacific Northwest dates, and a very crowded schedule. That's not counting some of the other locations at the end of the page seemingly have no firm dates attached to them. Very interesting to see Husker Du & Dead Kennedys slated as opening acts. A little influence rubbing off on those bands would make for some interesting music.
If Black Flag are support on any of those dates, they'd probably have Dez Cadena on vocals (Ron Reyes had just quit about that time), so any meeting with Henry Rollins would likely be at the D.C. show, although I'm not sure his band at the time (State of Alert) would've been in contention to be an opening act.
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Manic Street Preachers lyricist and sometimes guitarist Richey James Edwards idolized Ian Curtis.
Imagine, if Ian does want to help others (he helped others in a job he had... one woman inspired She Lost Control).
Imagine if he could helped Richey during the 94/95 horror years? He'd still be with us...
Imagine, if Ian does want to help others (he helped others in a job he had... one woman inspired She Lost Control).
Imagine if he could helped Richey during the 94/95 horror years? He'd still be with us...
FWIW, the 1980 debut concert of Joy Division's that I'm going to use in the eventual TL will probably look something like this(italicized dates are venues the band would've played in OTL)...
23 May 1980: Hurrah's - New York City
24 May 1980: Tier 3 - New York City
26 May 1980: Maxwell's - Hoboken, N.J.
28 May 1980: 9:30 Club - Washington, D.C.
30 May 1980: The Underground - Boston, Mass.
1 June 1980: Bookies - Detroit, Mich.
2 June 1980: Tuts - W.Belmont/Chicago, Ill.
4 June 1980: The Edge - Toronto, Ont.
7 June 1980: The Asbalt - Vancouver, B.C.
9 June 1980: Showbox at the Market - Seattle, Wash.
10 June 1980: Satryicon - Portland, Ore.
13 June 1980: American Indian Ctr. - San Francisco, Cal.
14 June 1980: The Starwood - Los Angeles, Ca.
15 June 1980: Whisky A Go Go - Los Angeles, Ca.
Most of these venues (w/the exception of the Pacific Northwest dates) were places the band would've gone to during their cancelled 1980 tour with the exceptions being the dates; the assumption I'm making here is that the band is well-aware of Ian's health problems and both the band and their managers are doing whatever they can to, (a)have a successful 1980 tour and (b)try to mitigate the stress on Ian to as much a reasonable degree as possible (though we are talking the music business so your-mileage-may-vary on that one).
23 May 1980: Hurrah's - New York City
24 May 1980: Tier 3 - New York City
26 May 1980: Maxwell's - Hoboken, N.J.
28 May 1980: 9:30 Club - Washington, D.C.
30 May 1980: The Underground - Boston, Mass.
1 June 1980: Bookies - Detroit, Mich.
2 June 1980: Tuts - W.Belmont/Chicago, Ill.
4 June 1980: The Edge - Toronto, Ont.
7 June 1980: The Asbalt - Vancouver, B.C.
9 June 1980: Showbox at the Market - Seattle, Wash.
10 June 1980: Satryicon - Portland, Ore.
13 June 1980: American Indian Ctr. - San Francisco, Cal.
14 June 1980: The Starwood - Los Angeles, Ca.
15 June 1980: Whisky A Go Go - Los Angeles, Ca.
Most of these venues (w/the exception of the Pacific Northwest dates) were places the band would've gone to during their cancelled 1980 tour with the exceptions being the dates; the assumption I'm making here is that the band is well-aware of Ian's health problems and both the band and their managers are doing whatever they can to, (a)have a successful 1980 tour and (b)try to mitigate the stress on Ian to as much a reasonable degree as possible (though we are talking the music business so your-mileage-may-vary on that one).
Ahh, so... their tour may influence the musicians who live in those states?
Potentially, yes....especially after those Northwest dates but the roadblock I'm hitting there is every band that comes to mind came to prominence well after 1980 so any effect would've be minimal but it would be there, hence the journalist angle that I mentioned earlier.
For Joy Division to have as big an influence as the Sex Pistols did in that '76 concert in Manchester, they'd have to be playing those Northwest dates in the mid-80's(anywhere from 1985-1987) and based on how I'm mapping out the TL in my head at present, it wouldn't be the same band per se' as back in 1980.
Potentially, yes....especially after those Northwest dates but the roadblock I'm hitting there is every band that comes to mind came to prominence well after 1980 so any effect would've be minimal but it would be there, hence the journalist angle that I mentioned earlier.
For Joy Division to have as big an influence as the Sex Pistols did in that '76 concert in Manchester, they'd have to be playing those Northwest dates in the mid-80's(anywhere from 1985-1987) and based on how I'm mapping out the TL in my head at present, it wouldn't be the same band per se' as back in 1980.
While you may not be able to directly influence the Seattle scene in 1980, there are some grunge precursor bands in California - especially Flipper and Fang in the San Francisco area. They were obstensibly hardcore punk bands, but they slowed the tempo down & used guitar sounds that wouldn't have been out of place on a Nirvana album. in concert, both Mudhoney and Nirvana have covered 'The money will roll right in' by Fang.
It might even help if some Californian bands take on the Joy Division sound and blaze a trail for the Northwest bands later in the 1980s.
That could happen.... *makes note to start researching the California punk scene from that period for the TL*
Wonder how this affects Grunge?
To cut to the chase, my gut feeling is that instead of Grunge, it may be either Industrial music (if Joy Division's influence survives largely unchanged to the late '80s/early 1990s),
or some sort of indie-dance crossover (if it mutates into New Order territory) as the style that breaks through from alternative to mainstream in the early 1990s.
On the good-humoured end of the movement, you could see Mudhoney evolve into an American version of Happy Mondays(!)
It all depends on whether Joy Division can influence the Californian hardcore punk bands - specifically those in OTL who broke from the 'loud and fast!' ethos to bring in heavy metal influences. 1980 is probably too early to directly effect the northwest scene, but a quote from Mark Arm (Green River, Mudhoney) who'd been attending Black Flag shows since 1981 about Black Flag's "My War" album is pertinent here:
"It was definately a line in the sand. It was sort of an intelligence test - if you could handle the changes of Black Flag you weren't an idiot. And if you thought they were just selling out, then you were an idiot."
- Mark Arm, quoted in 'Our Band Could Be Your Life' (Michael Azerrad)
While side 2 of My War is THE "Dylan goes electric" moment of 1980s hardcore, there were many other bands exploring similar ground.. Many on Black Flag's SST label.
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This would help all those Post Punk/Synth/Madchester/Baggy bands from the UK so maybe the US wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the 90's. That could mean Britpop is butterflied away and we have the US version.
I wonder if Joy Division would have an even better legacy? Death tends to invite worship.
I think the other guys in the band were overlooked to an extent until they regrouped as New Order - that's the danger when a band has a singer with such a presence as Ian.
It's quite concievable that they get more attention in Joy Division if Ian lives, especially if he steps back to a degree to preserve his health.
It makes sense, especially if Peter Hook & Stephen Morris go on to influence the rhythm sections of American underground bands in this timeline.