As I'm attempting to retool one of my timelines in the map thread, I got to thinking: in the event of a 1918 CP Victory, could Great Britain have fallen to fascism (or some other militaristic conservative ideology) at some point, ala Turtledove's TL-191. If so, how would this fascist state look, and how would it's dominions act?
Post CP Victory: Fascist Britain?
- Thread starter KN1
- Start date
Britain could have fallen to fascism but its politics, economy and geopolitical situation as well as the likely reprecussions of a defeat in WWI would be significantly different than Germany's so the results would be similarly different. My biggest gripe about Turtledove, especially that series, is that he almost directly transposes the history of one nation onto another. It's kind of amusing and entertaining, even thought provoking, but it doesn't make you feel convinced that you're reading a genuine alternate course of history.
Having said that I think I can give some ideas in the unlikely event that this did happen.
First of all, there will be strong emphasis on the uniqueness of England, its people etc. The racial attitude would be reminiscent of that held by Cecil Rhodes. Scapegoats for Britain's defeat would not be an ethnic minorty as in Germany but communists and socialists. The country would consider itself to be doing God's work and would employ increasingly hard-lined policies of assimilation and subjugation in the colonies. Military power would be a top priority and the country would build its strength up. As before, the British would emphasize provoking whatever enemy they wished to destroy into attacking them first rather than blatantly making the first move. They would go to much greater lengths to appear to the citizenry that the war was defensive and that the survival of the empire would be decided once and for all by the outcome of the struggle. Free speech would be stifled and justified as a necessary measure in wartime. Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa would attempt to distance themselves or break away altogether during this time and would either be denounced as traitors or granted some serious concessions to keep them in the commonwealth. In order to stir up fear and force the loyalty of the dominions, the British will attempt to incite conflict with the Japanese, who are most likely to be seen as a threat against which Australia and New Zealand must rally. Germany is also portrayed as an enemy but with more caution since Britain, having spent a huge amount of money on things like enourmous capital ships, does not have the means to defeat them on land. The end result is an eventual coup led by a member of the royal family following alienation from other English-speaking colonies, economic and military disaster, and the loss of old colonies. I imagine Britain becomming isolated and Germany, eventually provoked or otherwise angered, beginning to devastate the country through submarine warfare and relentless aerial bombing. France and/or the USA may potentially intervene to prevent Germany from demanding unconditional surrender and, if Russia or the USSr is involved, the prevent their collapse too. Faced with an arrogant (if more liberal) Germany poised to achieve European hegemony and eliminate all counterballances, Britain could be seen as the lesser of two evils. The Americans might not be willing to commit much in the way of troops but they might well lend a hand in fighting the German subs and sending supplies to the British. Wow, this is getting weird, huh?
Having said that I think I can give some ideas in the unlikely event that this did happen.
First of all, there will be strong emphasis on the uniqueness of England, its people etc. The racial attitude would be reminiscent of that held by Cecil Rhodes. Scapegoats for Britain's defeat would not be an ethnic minorty as in Germany but communists and socialists. The country would consider itself to be doing God's work and would employ increasingly hard-lined policies of assimilation and subjugation in the colonies. Military power would be a top priority and the country would build its strength up. As before, the British would emphasize provoking whatever enemy they wished to destroy into attacking them first rather than blatantly making the first move. They would go to much greater lengths to appear to the citizenry that the war was defensive and that the survival of the empire would be decided once and for all by the outcome of the struggle. Free speech would be stifled and justified as a necessary measure in wartime. Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa would attempt to distance themselves or break away altogether during this time and would either be denounced as traitors or granted some serious concessions to keep them in the commonwealth. In order to stir up fear and force the loyalty of the dominions, the British will attempt to incite conflict with the Japanese, who are most likely to be seen as a threat against which Australia and New Zealand must rally. Germany is also portrayed as an enemy but with more caution since Britain, having spent a huge amount of money on things like enourmous capital ships, does not have the means to defeat them on land. The end result is an eventual coup led by a member of the royal family following alienation from other English-speaking colonies, economic and military disaster, and the loss of old colonies. I imagine Britain becomming isolated and Germany, eventually provoked or otherwise angered, beginning to devastate the country through submarine warfare and relentless aerial bombing. France and/or the USA may potentially intervene to prevent Germany from demanding unconditional surrender and, if Russia or the USSr is involved, the prevent their collapse too. Faced with an arrogant (if more liberal) Germany poised to achieve European hegemony and eliminate all counterballances, Britain could be seen as the lesser of two evils. The Americans might not be willing to commit much in the way of troops but they might well lend a hand in fighting the German subs and sending supplies to the British. Wow, this is getting weird, huh?
Last edited:
I doubt it, communism seems far more likely given the political set up of the British isles. Especially since there would be far fewer people who you could accuse of stabbing Britain in the back or otherwise bringing nationalist anger to bear. British involvement and defeat in the war would fall squarely at the feet of the military brass and government leadership if they where beat.
It's hard to retreat into isolationism when you have a massive empire but with respect to Europe, I suppose so. The xenophobia doesn't present much of a problem to anyone except British investors though. You get, at worst, a sort of Franco type regime.
What if ironically, the colonies become the landing points of the oppositions, and perhaps even rebelling? London is far...
Beat the opposition or face a coup! You can't maintain legitimacy if you cannot defend the empire.
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
Kicked
It's easy - a loss makes Britain look weak. Their grip on the colonies will be weakened (as it was after a win in OTL). A nationalistic fascist government could rise simply because of that fact alone, if the public is played properly.
'Sort out the Empire and let Europe be' was Mosley's foreign policy.
Would that still hold if an ideological and historical ally, say a *fascist France, felt itself to be threatened?
Well, yeah, theres something. What flashpoints for an alt-WW2 would there be with a *fascist Britain (and France, for the sake of argument) against Germany?
I would have thought a Civil War would potentially be a more likely outcome.
Ireland is still going to explode into insurrection, maybe some sort of general Celtic "kickback" in Wales and Scotland too, with troublemakers of all stripes throughout the UK in general, Workers forming Soviets, Fascist groups etc all kicking out at each other.
Ireland is still going to explode into insurrection, maybe some sort of general Celtic "kickback" in Wales and Scotland too, with troublemakers of all stripes throughout the UK in general, Workers forming Soviets, Fascist groups etc all kicking out at each other.
The British can not loose in 1918. even if France surrenders since the Germans still can't do anything meaningful to them. The blockade still sees a starved Germany who will be unable to project power outside of Europe. Britain will have gained possesion over all of Germany's empire (minus what the Japanese got). They may even get substantially more in the form of the Congo from the now defunct Belgium and maybe even some (or all) of France's colonies, depending on what exactly happens in Paris.
British propaganda could easilly spin the war as having been a draw, with Germany getting to police Poland, Ucraine and France and they doubling the size of their empire...
British propaganda could easilly spin the war as having been a draw, with Germany getting to police Poland, Ucraine and France and they doubling the size of their empire...
I agree. A CP victory is likely to be seen in Britain as a French/Russian defeat. The Brits will see themselves as having done their best to prop up their failed allies but in the end the rot was too deep. At least that's how I perceive such a defeat being sold. Even with CP victory we're still likely to see the Ottoman Empire dismembered and Britain will likely be the beneficiary of that.
Grey Wolf
Donor
I agree with Mr Triangle simply because if Britain's allies are defeated then Britain is defeated, in defeat there will be massive strikes and demonstrations that in retrospect will manifest themselves into a 'Stab in the Back' myth. Sure, the Germans aren't coming swarming over the Channel, but Britain is effectively bankrupt, its relying on goodwill of the unions, and its paid a tremendous price in dead and wounded soldiers - the latter, if people will remember, was a factor in 1905 in the rising in Russia: so much suffering, so many wounded and killed for no gain.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
BlondieBC
Banned
Interesting question. A lot depends on the why and how of the defeat, but generally speaking, I see the UK focusing on the empire with a big tariff system. And with a greater threat, the white dominions (perhaps less South Africa) will be more pro-England and have larger defense budgets.
Does A-H survive is also important? Are France or Russia still allies? The UK and allies needs a larger army than Germany and allies in addition to larger navy. So this is a maybe.
Ah, but there would be someone to be blamed for a "Stab in the Back," -- the Irish. There would be a few somebodies who would point to the Easter Rebellion as one of the reasons for the defeat. This could also result in a tough British intervention in the Irish Civil War -- the war measures required then could easily be applied to Britain as well.
BlondieBC
Banned
True. With interesting effects on US domestic politics and US/UK relationships. Very harsh measures in Ireland will be huge issues in states like NY and Mass. It might even mean hostile US/UK relationship. Assuming the USA still comes in and the Entente lose, the USA will have internal blame issues. And with the UK also defaulting on loans, the UK makes a nice bad guy.
BlondieBC
Banned
I viewed turtledove's TL-191 to be more a way of personalizing OTL history to an American audience. Sort of an American History book written with vast poetic license. Definitely not a serious ATL. It is trying to humanize for Americans things like the Holocaust, Stalingrad (Battle of Pittsburg), and other issues. I felt the Holocaust part was well done.