Possible "Step-Conquerors"

[Aluma]

One common thing with Alt-Hist I noticed is notion of inherent talent to certain historical people or their irreplaceability as either someone pulling off what they did is impossible or at least very unlikely, with history ending up completely different if they werent where they were
Meanwhile there's many threads on WI Pompey won against Caesar or Antony against Octavian, if Philip led the macedonian campaigns against Persia instead of his sonn Alexander or if the mongol tribes were united under someone other than Temujin

So what I propose with this thread is to listen possible "replacements" for both well known and obscure conquerors, figures that could have filled their place for better or worse

To be clear, full-scenarios are not required, but if you wanna explain why you think X replacing Y would make for a interesting discussion or a fun TL I fully support you doing so
Keep in mind being as effective as the original is not necessary, incompetents count, but you can also mention candidates that arguably could have done a better job

 

[Teutoberg Forest]

I think part of the reason why it's so hard to imagine a "step-conquerer" is that most of the time these conquerors were not only talented but extremely megalomaniacal; less ego-driven men aren't remembered as widely because their successes tend to be less ambitious and more sustainable. For example, Caesar wouldn't be any more remembered than Crassus or Sulla had he not possessed the ego to try to become emperor in the first place, and if he had refrained from crossing the Rubicon we would likely remember some different Roman aristocrat as the first emperor.

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

Pompey the Great.

He was called "the Great" for a reason. He isn't nearly as well-remembered as he deserves, but if he defeated Caesar, his legacy would have been incredible.

 

[Aluma]

we would likely remember some different Roman aristocrat as the first emperor.

Hell, we remember the guy more than the actual first emperor Octavian
But that's why I added they dont have to do as efficient(or in this case, ambitious & remembered) to not limit the choices, just that they could have taken the place of the dude who did the conquering IOTL

 

[Alkmaion]

Pompey the Great.

He was called "the Great" for a reason. He isn't nearly as well-remembered as he deserves, but if he defeated Caesar, his legacy would have been incredible.

I don´t think so. Pompeius was a pretty conventional guy, he´d reigned a few years, but then the Republic would have started to have quarrels again...

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

I don´t think so. Pompeius was a pretty conventional guy, he´d reigned a few years, but then the Republic would have started to have quarrels again...

Sure, maybe. But his name would still loom large in history like other republican generals (Scipio, Sulla, etc), whereas Caesar would be remembered mainly as a villain whom he defeated.

 

[Alkmaion]

Not really.

He´d be just another warlord that tried to dominate the republic. Like Sulla, Marius, Cinna and Caesar.

 

[alexmilman]

One common thing with Alt-Hist I noticed is notion of inherent talent to certain historical people or their irreplaceability as either someone pulling off what they did is impossible or at least very unlikely, with history ending up completely different if they werent where they were
Meanwhile there's many threads on WI Pompey won against Caesar or Antony against Octavian, if Philip led the macedonian campaigns against Persia instead of his sonn Alexander or if the mongol tribes were united under someone other than Temujin

So what I propose with this thread is to listen possible "replacements" for both well known and obscure conquerors, figures that could have filled their place for better or worse

To be clear, full-scenarios are not required, but if you wanna explain why you think X replacing Y would make for a interesting discussion or a fun TL I fully support you doing so
Keep in mind being as effective as the original is not necessary, incompetents count, but you can also mention candidates that arguably could have done a better job

Step-Napoleon. OK, here is a recently discussed alternative. Napoleon is being killed at Marengo while Moreau is still victorious at Hohenlinden. As in OTL Nappy expected (in writing), commander of the Army of the West, general Bernadotte, is marching on Paris to save the Republic (in general) and Bonaparte family (specifically (*)). As was expected by the British observers, a military triumvirate is established, Massena, Moreau and Bernadotte, out of which only Bernadotte has political and administrative skills and ambitions. So he ends up being your “step-Napoleon”.

The immediate difference is defensive strategy/policy: France has 1793 borders and backed up by the existing sister republics. No messing in Germany (and in Italy). The Brits were seemingly ready to accept this and so was pretty much everybody else (Austria may get back all or most of the losses in Italy).

If this works out, then no excitement of the next 15 years and at least 3,000,000 - 4,000,000 people are not being killed (only military losses).
________
(*) He was considered pretty much a family member and was on better terms with most of its members (especially, Joseph and Lucien but with the females as well) then Napoleon.

Step-Cenghis Khan. The “Mongolian” tribes are united not by Temujin. In practical terms this means that they are unified by Jamukha (Torghul
option is boring - he was seemingly lacking the brains and energy for anything beyond growing into a regional nuisance). The main difference is that Jamukha ends up with a tribe-based army. In the best (for him) case scenario he manages to unify the whole steppe and even to raid Northern China. He does not have a full control of his army (the tribal leaders are in charge) and he does not have the same generals as Genghis: they did not come from the tribal leadership and hardly could expect to raise to the top in a traditional nomadic army.
Probably we can even expect conquest of the Northern China, if the Jurchens did it then why not the Mongols, and some other regional states but I’m not sure about Khwaresm (Turkic tribal army vs. “Mongolian” tribal army) and the whole things starts failing apart after his death or even earlier: neither he nor his potential successor (if he has a son) has an overwhelming military force of his own.

 

[Aluma]

As in OTL Nappy expected (in writing), commander of the Army of the West, general Bernadotte, is marching on Paris to save the Republic
The immediate difference is defensive strategy/policy: France has 1793 borders and backed up by the existing sister republics.
If this works out, then no excitement of the next 15 years and at least 3,000,000 - 4,000,000 people are not being killed (only military losses).

So Beethoven's symphony would be called Bernadotte this time around? I guess after doing all of this he would've earned it

 

[kasumigenx]

Step-Rome, Ligurians, and Massalia conquering Italy establishing an empire instead of the other way around, this would make the Italics more like the Chinese.

Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

www.academia.edu

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

I think Hannibal Barca should be on here, too. Even though he is remembered well for his stunning and brilliant victories, he very nearly won the war for Carthage, and the entire history of the world might have been different.

 

[cmakk1012]

If not for the Protestant Reformation Austria could have been step-Germany, in most senses of that concept.

 

[Aluma]

Step-Rome, Ligurians, and Massalia conquering Italy establishing an empire instead of the other way around, this would make the Italics more like the Chinese.

The sinophile in me is screaming right now

If not for the Protestant Reformation Austria could have been step-Germany, in most senses of that concept.

Austro-Germany?
Glorious

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

If not for the Protestant Reformation Austria could have been step-Germany, in most senses of that concept.

The Habsburgs in general were pretty impressive, but also had a lot of near-misses. I can see Philip II of Spain replacing Elizabeth in the English imaginary, being remembered as a welcome foreigner whose intervention was in England's best interest, like how folks think of William the Conqueror or William of Orange.

 

[alexmilman]

So Beethoven's symphony would be called Bernadotte this time around? I guess after doing all of this he would've earned it

You are finding really important differences: these millions of people would die anyway sooner or later but Beethoven's symphony is immortal. 👍
OTOH, there will probably be no Overture of 1812 to play on July 4th. 👎

 

[Nivek]

You are finding really important differences: these millions of people would die anyway sooner or later but Beethoven's symphony is immortal. 👍
OTOH, there will probably be no Overture of 1812 to play on July 4th. 👎

As he was a draft dodger short of being captured and drafted in the prussian army, he is safe by the POD itself

 

[AtreusHashim]

Some more:

• Harald Hardrada: Harold Godwinson goes south to fight William first? Norway-England becomes a dual kingdom united under the House of Hardrada.
• Mark Antony: He tried to invade Persia as a triumvir, had he ended up Princeps insted of Augustus might he have succeeded?
• Ali ibn Abi Talib: Ali being elected to the Caliphate early probably changes the entire nature of the Islamic conquests. He seems to have been far less ambitious than Abu Bakr and Umar and may not have seized on the opportunity presented by the unstable Roman and Sassanid empires as vigorously as his predecessors.
• Cyrus the Younger: Failed to oust his brother from the Achaemenid throne. Was a bear-wrestling badass who fought alongside his father's Spartan allies, the Spartans were later attacked and defeated by Artaxerxes II. If Cyrus had been sitting the throne Persia likely would've entered the Corinthian war on the side of Sparta against Athens.
• Ismail of Ghazni: Another younger brother, this time enthroned and deposed by an elder brother (Mahmud). Without Mahmud's raids, India is probably far less Muslim than OTL. Possibly no Dehli Sultanate.

 

[Elfwine]

A relatively modest example that I'm not sure if strictly counts, but John Tzimiskes dying at sixty (so around 985) might be interesting as far as more campaigning in Syria/the Levant than Basil II was interested in.

Better or worse for the empire? Hard to say. But probably much different than what happened 976-985 OTL, and Basil probably won't be "the Bulgar Slayer" if John has already subdued Bulgaria.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

I think part of the reason why it's so hard to imagine a "step-conquerer" is that most of the time these conquerors were not only talented but extremely megalomaniacal; less ego-driven men aren't remembered as widely because their successes tend to be less ambitious and more sustainable. For example, Caesar wouldn't be any more remembered than Crassus or Sulla had he not possessed the ego to try to become emperor in the first place, and if he had refrained from crossing the Rubicon we would likely remember some different Roman aristocrat as the first emperor.

Caesar never tried to become emperor.

Pompey the Great.

He was called "the Great" for a reason. He isn't nearly as well-remembered as he deserves, but if he defeated Caesar, his legacy would have been incredible.

Not really, Pompey didn't have the familial prestige or personal conviction to go so far. Given a small POD he might have defeated Caesar, but at that stage of his life he would have easily been browbeaten by the Senate into just retiring as a hero, not being a threat to the establishment. Pompey spent his whole career striving to belong, bending over backwards for the Senate and senators when he held all the cards. Caesar would never do so because he was a patrician of one of the most august families.

Sure, maybe. But his name would still loom large in history like other republican generals (Scipio, Sulla, etc), whereas Caesar would be remembered mainly as a villain whom he defeated.

I think 99% of people know at least one Roman, and that'll always be Caesar. Probably 20 or 30% of people know two or three Romans: Caesar, and then Augustus and/or Mark Antony. Then a few more know Cicero, Pompey, and Scipio Africanus. Then the curve drops very very sharply. If Pompey's name looms as large as Scipio or Sulla, that's not saying much. It takes a more special man for the name to become the word for emperor in a dozen languages.

 

[Neoteros]

Step-Rome, Ligurians, and Massalia conquering Italy establishing an empire instead of the other way around, this would make the Italics more like the Chinese.

Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

www.academia.edu

How so?

I've always been a supporter of a hypothetical Etruscan unification of Italy, on the other hand, but they lacked the administrative efficiency and the military prowess of Rome. And, unifying the Etruscan city-states (that, at their height, had a sphere of influence covering most of the peninsula) would've been far harder than unifying the Latin city-states, that were all situated in and around Latium Vetus.

However, since Rome was perhaps the most Etruscan of the Latin city-states (with legendary kings and Republican gentes having Etruscan roots) it wouldn't be that hard for Rome to become a fully Etruscan city while retaining its administrative and military genius - that was mostly born out of a pragmatic tendency to co-opt whatever institutions and inventions their enemies had, that were recognized as better than Rome's own, anyway.

Even then, I doubt an Etruscan Italy would expand as much as Roman Italy did, they'd probably be content with exerting their influence over the northwestern Mediterranean alone, as they would've been the most developed civilization in Western Europe by far - Carthage, Egypt and Macedon would've taken the remaining corners of the Mediterranean for themselves.

Rome did resemble China in some ways, though - I don't know how Massalia would've made the comparison even more apt.