Possible Intereuropean organizations after WW1?

DUWANG

DUWANG

So I looked a bit into possible ideas for pre-WW2 EU like ideas.
Outside of some few individuals writing about how Europe will one way unite, I couldn't really find any actual proposals about how those would look or which countries would be part of it.

So I wanted to ask if any of you know actual proposals that were suggested. Doesn't even have to be pan European. Just an economic proposal between two or more European countries.
The best possible thing I found that's anywhere near that was the Baltic Entente.

And if there weren't any actual proposals, how long do you think first talks would have started if we assume that at least Germany remains democratic/fascism and communism not spreading.
I know that there were advocates on both sides for a new Franco-German relationship after WW1.
 

Ambusher11

Briand did propose a federal European union starting on September 5, 1929 in a speech at the League of Nations. I think his proposal was brought up a few more times by the French government in the early 1930s, though this proposal didn't really seem to have gone anywhere.
 
DUWANG

DUWANG

Ambusher11 said:
Briand did propose a federal European union starting on September 5, 1929 in a speech at the League of Nations. I think his proposal was brought up a few more times by the French government in the early 1930s, though this proposal didn't really seem to have gone anywhere.
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So as far as we know Briand and Keynes talked about European cooperation. But I couldn't find a proposed list of member states.
Briand talked about the Industrial regions of Europe. While Keynes talked about Central Europe more specifically.

So could a good starting point be between France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and Czechoslovakia?
Czechoslovakia was a pretty industrial state. And having good relations with Germany could not only ease inner ethnic problems but also secure an ally against Poland.
Germany and France of course being the main interest points of Briand and Stresemann. And Belgium and Luxembourg I see as being naturally included if there were any growing relations with Germany and France, with the two being in the middle of them.

Maybe Austria if France has better relations with Germany? Then I could see the German-Austrian customs union being realized.

Any other potential members? A non Fascist Italy maybe? The Netherlands? Poland would be tricky with Germany and Czechoslovakia having bad relations with them. I can't see the UK involving itself so much into continental politics/economies.
 

Ambusher11

DUWANG said:
So as far as we know Briand and Keynes talked about European cooperation. But I couldn't find a proposed list of member states.
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I've found Briand's May 1, 1930 memorandum for the proposed federal European union, It can be viewed here (though it should be noted that the memorandum is in French). It seems that he wanted the proposed union to be created within the framework of the League of Nations, and that he promised to submit a detailed plan for a federal union to all European states that were members of the LoN.
 

skarosianlifeform

Poland might bite the bullet and join, because France (her primary protector) would be part of the union, Germany and Czechslovakia would still be rivals but also democratic reasonable states, and more importantly there's the Russian bear...

Or the Poles might refuse because stupid nationalism, and face Stalin alone.

If Czechslovakia is joining, Romania and Yugoslavia might well join too, if only to get Franco-German permanent guarantees against Soviets (and Hungarians, Bulgarians and Italians).
Which, in turn, might bring Greece in.

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia will be VERY interested in joining for obvious reasons (though Lithuania joining might annoy the Poles even more...).
 
DUWANG

DUWANG

skarosianlifeform said:
Poland might bite the bullet and join, because France (her primary protector) would be part of the union, Germany and Czechslovakia would still be rivals but also democratic reasonable states, and more importantly there's the Russian bear...

Or the Poles might refuse because stupid nationalism, and face Stalin alone.

If Czechslovakia is joining, Romania and Yugoslavia might well join too, if only to get Franco-German permanent guarantees against Soviets (and Hungarians, Bulgarians and Italians).
Which, in turn, might bring Greece in.

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia will be VERY interested in joining for obvious reasons (though Lithuania joining might annoy the Poles even more...).
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The thing is. How much is Poland willing to pay Germany, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania if it joined before Poland?

If a fascist/authoritarian block of the likes of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Greece and maybe Romania still forms in the South, could we see laws like the OTL EU that forces joining members to be democratic?
 
SealTheRealDeal

SealTheRealDeal

DUWANG said:
The thing is. How much is Poland willing to pay Germany, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania if it joined before Poland?

If a fascist/authoritarian block of the likes of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Greece and maybe Romania still forms in the South, could we see laws like the OTL EU that forces joining members to be democratic?
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If there's a democracy requirement then Poland isn't getting in anyways.
 

skarosianlifeform

DUWANG said:
The thing is. How much is Poland willing to pay Germany, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania if it joined before Poland?

If a fascist/authoritarian block of the likes of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Greece and maybe Romania still forms in the South, could we see laws like the OTL EU that forces joining members to be democratic?
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Italy, Hungary and Bulgaria make a natural alliance, being both right-wing dictatorships and unsatisfied with the Versailles order. Spain would also make a natural member, because of Italian support to Franco in SCW (assuming a Francoist victory).

Greece and Romania, regardless of being democratic or not, would fit less in such an alliance, because they're primary targets of Hungarian / Italian expansionist agendas.
 
SealTheRealDeal

SealTheRealDeal

skarosianlifeform said:
Italy, Hungary and Bulgaria make a natural alliance, being both right-wing dictatorships and unsatisfied with the Versailles order. Spain would also make a natural member, because of Italian support to Franco in SCW (assuming a Francoist victory).

Greece and Romania, regardless of being democratic or not, would fit less in such an alliance, because they're primary targets of Hungarian / Italian expansionist agendas.
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If France is throwing Poland under the bus to mend fences with Germany then Poland might gravitate towards the Italian pact. They were very chummy with Hungary after all.
 

skarosianlifeform

SealTheRealDeal said:
If France is throwing Poland under the bus to mend fences with Germany then Poland might gravitate towards the Italian pact. They were very chummy with Hungary after all.
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Except that Italy doesn't have the military power to defend Poland (or to deter the Soviets away), and even more importantly, no physical access to Poland (Italy, Hungary and Poland are all completely cut off from each other).
 

Snaut

Poland's relations with a Franco-German bloc will largely depend on the dynamics between Paris and Berlin. Czechoslovakia and Lithuania seem like non-issues wrt Poland. Czechoslovakia's 1919 landgrab against Poland was relatively small, Czechoslovakia seems to have been more or less satisfied with it, and Poland gave the matter a relatively low priority. Lithuania's small size and weakness will mean that its anachronistic claim on Vilnius will be irrelevant if the Franco-German bloc don't support it, something that they have no strong interest in doing. The question is how happy France will be with Germany expanding eastwards. On one hand if France and Germany are on good terms with each other France will be less afraid of German revisionism. On the other, a satisfied Germany can be so large and influential that France may de facto end up at its mercy, something the French are unlikely to approve of. So France may object to many items on Berlin's shopping list such as the land connection to the German Enclave in Prussia or the Czechoslovak borderlands.

Since authoritarianism is not the same thing as fascism, the proposed "anti-democratic" alliance would have nothing to base itself on. Neither a common ideology nor common interests.

The concept of a European alliance in the interwar period has been explored here. The big plot twist may arguably strain plausibility, but it is nevertheless creative, and the timeline is quite optimistic and a pleasant read.
 
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Kroumch

Snaut said:
Lithuania's small size and weakness will mean that its anachronistic claim on Vilnius will be irrelevant if the Franco-German bloc don't support it, something that they have no strong interest in doing.
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Why anachronistic though? I'm not denying that it was majority Pole and Jewish at the time, but it's not like the Lithuanian population was nonexistent. Every demographic census in that region from 1897 to 1942 (I'm excluding the Soviet census since many poles were transferred to Poland) was very different depending on who did it (Russians, Germans, or Poles) and I'm not counting the Lithuanian censuses for obvious reasons. So we could say that at least 15-20% of Lithuanians were living in that region (not the city) or maybe even more. And in history, many nations had claims for regions that didn't have that many percent. Besides that, it is the historical capital.
I would say that Lithuania had the same claim as Poland did.
 

Snaut

snerfuplz said:
I was thinking of Lwow, Pinsk, and Kielce. Though the really nasty massacres do happen later during World War 2 though the context is different for those
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These had nothing to do with federalism, but rather with the unfortunate realities of what happens in the vicinity of frontlines in conditions of semi-anarchy (in which the withdrawing Central Powers left much of central and eastern Europe in 1919).
 
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