Poll: The Dutch could conquer the Spanish Netherlands after 1621
- Thread starter Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
- Start date
There were two real options for re-conquest of nearly all of the 17th provinces the North Netherlands.
- 1st In 1632 Nobles form the Soth conspires with Frederick Henri of Nassau, and the French crown, by deviding the Spanish Nehterlands.
Frederick Henri started his campaing by Siege of Maastricht this took longer than anticipated and after the capture of Maastricht he waited on the French advance from the Soth whihc never came. The window of opprotunity was gone. When he finaly moved his army with French troops the troops captured the cioty of Tinenen, raped and pillaged the city whihc burned to the ground. This act destroyed any support in the South and a supply base for further advance.
- 2nd 1638 Frederick Henri advance with an armyin order to capture Antwerp. He split his army with a 3rd of his army on the West shore of the river Scheld. While he is still with his main force at the East shore Norht of Antwerp his Cousin with the rest of the army is whiped out by the Army of Flanders in the Battle of Kallo.
- 3rd 1646 Not a real atemped. With French help a coup de main is planed to take Bruges but this attemd was halted at the very last moment or not proper executed.
It could be done, but with an other caracter than Frederick Henri of Nassau. He was too indicisive and to soft compared to his brother Maurice or his cousins.
- 1st In 1632 Nobles form the Soth conspires with Frederick Henri of Nassau, and the French crown, by deviding the Spanish Nehterlands.
Frederick Henri started his campaing by Siege of Maastricht this took longer than anticipated and after the capture of Maastricht he waited on the French advance from the Soth whihc never came. The window of opprotunity was gone. When he finaly moved his army with French troops the troops captured the cioty of Tinenen, raped and pillaged the city whihc burned to the ground. This act destroyed any support in the South and a supply base for further advance.
- 2nd 1638 Frederick Henri advance with an armyin order to capture Antwerp. He split his army with a 3rd of his army on the West shore of the river Scheld. While he is still with his main force at the East shore Norht of Antwerp his Cousin with the rest of the army is whiped out by the Army of Flanders in the Battle of Kallo.
- 3rd 1646 Not a real atemped. With French help a coup de main is planed to take Bruges but this attemd was halted at the very last moment or not proper executed.
It could be done, but with an other caracter than Frederick Henri of Nassau. He was too indicisive and to soft compared to his brother Maurice or his cousins.
In theory, yes they could. Probably not before 1648 and probably not all of it (they would have to share some of it with France, just like France got Artois, Dunkirk, etc OTL).
I would say that the biggest problem would be that after a while, they stopped caring about it. They could have continued the war against Spain after 1648 and capture more of the Southern Netherlands than OTL, but most towns and provinces simply did not care enough.
I would say that the biggest problem would be that after a while, they stopped caring about it. They could have continued the war against Spain after 1648 and capture more of the Southern Netherlands than OTL, but most towns and provinces simply did not care enough.
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
I first encountered this at High School. Back then I was interested in Dutch trade companies and came across what was a rivalry between Maurits and Oldenbarnevelt. I was interested and found out that Maurits had an ambition to conquer the remaining Spanish Netherlands. Oldenbarnevelt in favor of peace and trade.
Lately I was busy with an ATL for the Ottomans. But I want to change the events in some part of the world as well, The Netherlands for one. So I wondered if I could have the Dutch rebels to conquer all of the Low Lands or at least the Dutch speaking part. Ofcourse being a Dutchie this sounds favorable to me
As far as I know, after the death of Maurits there was a little interest to take over all. And after the agressive French policies the goal to conquer the South was as good as gone in favor of a Bufferzone against Louis XIV.
I wopuld say that the stadholders in general wanted to expand Dutch territory, while the regents (often rich merchants or people who were connected to them) did not care about expansion in the Netherlands and just wanted to get richer (and thus needed peace to accomplish it). The rivalry of Maurice and Oldenbarneveld is a good example, but another one would be Willem II who wanted to divide the Southern Netherlands with France, while the regents, especialy those of all powerful Amsterdam did not want a war. In a way you see the same thing with the first Dutch Willem I, who was basicly a glorified stadholder was the one who finaly managed to get the Southern Netherlands.I first encountered this at High School. Back then I was interested in Dutch trade companies and came across what was a rivalry between Maurits and Oldenbarnevelt. I was interested and found out that Maurits had an ambition to conquer the remaining Spanish Netherlands. Oldenbarnevelt in favor of peace and trade.
Lately I was busy with an ATL for the Ottomans. But I want to change the events in some part of the world as well, The Netherlands for one. So I wondered if I could have the Dutch rebels to conquer all of the Low Lands or at least the Dutch speaking part. Ofcourse being a Dutchie this sounds favorable to me
As far as I know, after the death of Maurits there was a little interest to take over all. And after the agressive French policies the goal to conquer the South was as good as gone in favor of a Bufferzone against Louis XIV.
In the timeline I am planning, my plan is for (stadholder) Willem II to make a deal with the French to divide the Southern Netherlands by having him win the confrontation with Amsterdam and the other regents. Mind you, this would not give the Netherlands all of the Southern Netherlands (or in reality even all of Flanders).
A Dutch southern Nederlands/Flanders is the nightmare of the Hollandic (and especially Amsterdam) Regents. It would mean that Antwerpen could not be blockaded anymore. The port of Antwerpen is far superior to any other port in the Netherlands. Because of the shallow Zuyder Zee East Indiamen could not even get to Amsterdam.
A Dutch Flanders will break the Hollandic dominance of the Republic.
Sounds interesting, no?
However, does one really want ones beating heart so close to the border with the French?
A good reason to add them, especialy for the stadholder.
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Mind you, there is one thing I would like to add. Antwerp will be part of Brabant, thus be a generality land and not a province. Most likely Holland would remain the most powerful province if Antwerp, or even if Flanders and all of Brabant were added to the Dutch Republic.
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As a born and raised Amsterdammer I'm naturally sceptical
The internal mechanics of a enlarged Netherlands will certainly be interesting as will the change in internal mechanics that lead to the enlargement!
Once the Stadholder is in control he might very well decide to accept Brabant as a province to act as a counterbalance to Holland. A hurdle will probably the religion but would the Stadholder care as much as the Regents?
There is also the question of the Flemish 'diaspora'. Antwerpen fell to the Spanish in 1585 and 60,000 Antwerpian protestants left the city for the North. Will they return if the city is Dutch again?
the problem with your questions is that after 1621 is a long period of time and technically the Netherlands reconquest the place during the War of the Spanish Succession, as part of the Anglo-Dutch Condominium.
And Spain only lost the territory because internal factor(plague, economic downturn, Charles II "the bewitched" as king) and a big push of an ascended French Empire, so I doubt the Netherlands could reconquest the Spanish Netherlands Alone
And Spain only lost the territory because internal factor(plague, economic downturn, Charles II "the bewitched" as king) and a big push of an ascended French Empire, so I doubt the Netherlands could reconquest the Spanish Netherlands Alone
In my planned timeline, which I mention too often,that is exactly what I want to do Willem II defeats the regent and makes Brabant and Drenthe (and late Flanders) provinces to counterbalance the power of Holland. That said, I am far from certain that actualy will happen. Willem II was pretty harsh against the catholics, far harsher than the regents generaly were. So I think it is possible that he decides not to make Brabant (and Flanders and whatever) a province. It kind of depends. For example, if Antwerp is conquered in the late stages of the Dutch revolt (and that was basicly the target they were aming for), I think Brabant will remain a generality land. The same is true if Antwerp becomes Dutch while there was not actualy a power struggle between the Regents and the stadholder. For example if it ends up Dutch during a stadholderless age (maybe because the regents fear that Spain or Austria or whoever will be able to force open the port of Antwerp and they decide it is better to keep a tighter control on it themselves and get in a peace treaty, or whatever). Basicly it depends on the circumstances.
I doubt they would return after 30-40 years living in Amsterdam. Lets say they were 20 whenAntwerp fell. They would be 50-60 years old. Their children would not be able to remember Antwerp. I wouldn't worry too much about it. They would remain in Amsterdam.