Politics in the Great War Series

Archangel Michael · Feb 20, 2004

I'm talking about the Great War and American Empire series of books by HT.

From the books, the Republican Party is probally a liberal party (from Flora Hamburger saying that 'the Republicans and Socialists have a majoirty in the house'). That said, why would a conservative party make an appereant coloalition with a liberal party. The Democrats are probally conservative (how can a democracy work when the two main parties are liberal?), and has a hardline agains the CS.

In the Confederacy, we have a conservative (Whig) and liberal (Radical Liberal) parties. From someone in the book, they said that the Rad Libs aren't very radical or liberal. Does this mean that the Rad Libs are more of a moderate/conservative party? Huey Long through had state government funded projects, which is clearly a left-wing move. Did Long run a sect of the Rad Lib party?

The Freedom Party is hard to place to me. They have government funded projects (liberal). Does this mean that they are a liberal party. Or are they a right-wing conservative party like the Nazis of OTL?

David Howery · Feb 21, 2004

uh, the Freedom party is outside of any traditional right/left wing politics, and clear over into dictatorship. In spite of the trappings of democracy in the CSA under Featherston, he effectively has a lock on every election and every vestige of power is in his hands. He can do anything he pleases, and his rubberstamp Congress will pass whatever he says. He is accountable to none. Right and left are pretty much meaningless.
The Republicans are dang near extinct in the series... Lincoln took the bulk of them into the Socialist party, and the GOP never recovered. It's not really clear in the books just which part of the US still elects them, but there are only a handful of Rep. Congressmen....

Archangel Michael · Feb 21, 2004

If I rember, Midwestern states (nebraska, Iowa, Dakota, Kansas) still elect Republicans.

Michael E Johnson · Feb 21, 2004

----From the books, the Republican Party is probally a liberal party (from Flora Hamburger saying that 'the Republicans and Socialists have a majoirty in the house'). That said, why would a conservative party make an appereant coloalition with a liberal party. The Democrats are probally conservative (how can a democracy work when the two main parties are liberal?), and has a hardline agains the CS. ---

Its probably a stretch to call the Republicans liberal-they are probably moderate-center -left at the most. Given that they are still popular in the mid-west farm states they probably have what would be called populist views OTL. The thing that prevents them from becoming a true national party again is of course the loss of the Southern states under Republican leadership. The Democrats are definitely conservative. The take a hardline when it comes to CSA expansion but they are less concerned about the mistreatment of blacks in the CSA than the Socialists are.

----In the Confederacy, we have a conservative (Whig) and liberal (Radical Liberal) parties. From someone in the book, they said that the Rad Libs aren't very radical or liberal. Does this mean that the Rad Libs are more of a moderate/conservative party? Huey Long through had state government funded projects, which is clearly a left-wing move. Did Long run a sect of the Rad Lib party?---

Liberal and conservative probably mean different things in the CSA than in the USA to a certain degree. The Rad -Libs are popular in Cuba,the former Mexican CSA States,Florida and Louisiana (where Huey Long was a Rad Lib governor) The Radical Liberals probably presented themselves as more a "working mans party" but since the Whigs were entrenched in power and the Rad Libs mainly represented the "backwater" states of the USA. OTL Huey Long would have been considered a liberal at his time when it came to race relations . In this CSA the Radical Liberals are probably a little more relaxed about racial issues considering their large numbers of Hispanic voters. They may not have been to hard (for the CSA) on the black population in Louisiana. They didnt protest when the Whigs started black conscription. A white socialist would have a pretty short like span in the CSA-even before the Freedom party-but I think its safe to assume that whatever few whites in the CSA with socialist leanings probably voted Rad Lib.

---The Freedom Party is hard to place to me. They have government funded projects (liberal). Does this mean that they are a liberal party. Or are they a right-wing conservative party like the Nazis of OTL?----

Freedom party is bascially a southern fascist party. Some state controls of industry moving towards strict state control with an expanding military and wide support among the middle class. It has exploited 3 main issues in the CSA among whites to hold onto power-turning the poor economy around,hostile policy towards the US and harsh treatment of blacks. It undoubedtly has former Whigs and Radical Liberals in its ranks-and has landed hard on those people from both parties who oppose it-like Huey Long.

Mr.Bluenote · Feb 21, 2004

Michael E Johnson said:
Freedom party is bascially a southern fascist party.

That would be true if not for the blatant racism in the FP! Facists aren't racist (well, the ideologi is not at least) as such, so I'm more inclined to call them Nationalsocialists (yes, yes, Nazis

).

Otherwise I completely agree!

Best regards!

- B.

Melvin Loh · Feb 23, 2004

No blacks in US Army

1 thing I totally disagree with in HT's WORLDWAR series is the lack of blacks in combat positions within the US Army, unlike OTL.

David Howery · Feb 23, 2004

well, the south isn't part of the union in this TL, which means there isn't the OTL population to draw upon. Still, it seems curious.. just what was the % of the black population in the northern states at the time of the ACW?
What I've never understood in these books is why the US doesn't encourage blacks to desert the south and join special black regiments in the US army... you'd have another pool of manpower who REALLY hate the CSA...

Grey Wolf · Feb 24, 2004

Wilson

One thing that has struck me as curious is how Wilson became president of the Confederacy, it seems too much like Turtledove thinking wouldn't it be a hoot to have Wilson as Confederate president and TR as president of the Union going into the war...

OTL Wilson made his name as President of Princeton University...which I believe is in New Jersey ? What possibilities/likelihood are there that he would have had such an impact within the Confederacy, especially as his subject was political science which would be a very different beast in the South than in the North

Grey Wolf

Xen · Feb 24, 2004

That seems to be the whole series, I pretty much quit the series, it no longer can intrest me. Turtledove has changed nothing, we know how TR made a name for himself, but during the war of 1881 he was only in his mid 20's. Maybe Turtledove should have said Wilson was the Governor of Virginia or a Senator or something. Without explaining it, Wilson's character went from someone who didn't want to involve his nation in war in OTL to someone overly anxious for a war with a powerful neighbor in TTL.

Michael E Johnson · Feb 24, 2004

----OTL Wilson made his name as President of Princeton University...which I believe is in New Jersey ? What possibilities/likelihood are there that he would have had such an impact within the Confederacy, especially as his subject was political science which would be a very different beast in the South than in the North-----

---That seems to be the whole series, I pretty much quit the series, it no longer can intrest me. Turtledove has changed nothing, we know how TR made a name for himself, but during the war of 1881 he was only in his mid 20's. Maybe Turtledove should have said Wilson was the Governor of Virginia or a Senator or something. Without explaining it, Wilson's character went from someone who didn't want to involve his nation in war in OTL to someone overly anxious for a war with a powerful neighbor in TTL.----

Wilson was born in Vriginia OTL. So if he had been in this ATL he most likely never would have went to New Jersey and would have made any name for himself in Virginia. Wilson wouldnt have had the exact same worldview/motivations as a Confederate president and he would have as US president OTL because the circumstances are completley different. I think that HT does a pretty good job with including charcters from OTL in his ATL's.Many would argue that you shouldnt do that at all because the butterfly effect would pretty much insure they wouldnt even exist.But if you are going to include them in an ATL it kind of defeats the purpose if you make them a carbon copy of who they were OTL. Wilson certainly wasnt perfect in OTL-he is credited for he way he handled WWI and what he tried to do with the Versailles treaty and League of Nations but something that isnt as well known is that he segregated the federal government in 1913 at the behest of Southerners. Looks like in a sense even the OTL Wilson struck a blow for Dixie.

Grey Wolf · Mar 1, 2004

Michael E Johnson said:
Wilson was born in Vriginia OTL. So if he had been in this ATL he most likely never would have went to New Jersey and would have made any name for himself in Virginia. Wilson wouldnt have had the exact same worldview/motivations as a Confederate president and he would have as US president OTL because the circumstances are completley different. I think that HT does a pretty good job with including charcters from OTL in his ATL's.Many would argue that you shouldnt do that at all because the butterfly effect would pretty much insure they wouldnt even exist.But if you are going to include them in an ATL it kind of defeats the purpose if you make them a carbon copy of who they were OTL. Wilson certainly wasnt perfect in OTL-he is credited for he way he handled WWI and what he tried to do with the Versailles treaty and League of Nations but something that isnt as well known is that he segregated the federal government in 1913 at the behest of Southerners. Looks like in a sense even the OTL Wilson struck a blow for Dixie.

My point about Wilson wasn't so much that I disagreed with his personality or even politics in Turtledove's work, but I disagreed with him being there in the first place.

He is hardly a natural candidate for president. I don't know if his family had any background in politics in OTL, but even if they did he never seems to have used it. His professional reputation was based on Princeton. OK. I assume that the CSA would have comparable universities and also comparable large donors who give endowments. But, building on his professional reputation was his political theories which became popular because of WHAT he said and HOW he said it. Mind, this was all in the world of acedemia at this time - he very much pointed to the corruption of the old system and outlined an idealistic new way of liberty and democracy, which all struck a chord with the American people. He is hardly going to be doing anything similar in Turtledove's CSA ! Thus, if you posit that his political thought has developed differently, how is it going to come to national attention and raise him to the platform from where he was able in OTL to run first for governor then for president ? One cannot imagine Wilson being a completely different person as regards to his beliefs, so he will have to have some of his idealistic democracy and anti party machine philosophy, and with that is it likely he becomes governor of Virginia, the most powerful state in the Confederacy ? Or maybe the university he is at in this ATL is in another state and he becomes governor there - Texas perhaps as it has independent traditions and is likely to be against domination by a party machine, but Texas seems to be the antipathy of true liberty or democracy from what I can see. And thereafter can he run for president, and on what platform ???

Grey Wolf