Poland - superpower in 2005 challenge

Soyuz said:
Well, the title pretty much sais it all. I need ideas (or timelines) on how Poland in 2005 can be as large as Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth during its height, or even larger.

I'm looking for Poland that covers the current countries of Poland, Belorus, Ukraine, Kaliningrad and Lithuania for starters. I'll give you a bonus if it also includes the territories of Latvia, Estonia, Moldovia, Slovakia, and the (late) East Germany or everything together.

Do you mean a 'just' Poland covering all those area, or one that is also a superpower? Former is easier, and can have PoD as late as Soviet-Polish War, and Pilsudski's little federation coming to fruition (opposite of my Soviet Union win at Warsaw timeline). Later would be a bit harder, requiring a much earlier PoD.
 

Glen

Moderator
jolo said:
The latest realistic PoD would be the reign of Stanislaus II beginning in 1764. He was really bad in the internal and external power struggle - alienating the nobles in his country and his neighbouring countries until a civil war (1768) and the partition of Poland (1772) arrives.

Replace him with someone more competent, then Poland stays and may prosper.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Surprisingly, I think a lot of PODs just before 1772 couild lead to a powerful Polish Superpower by 2005.
 
Straha said:
sounds likely. The whole unaniumous vote thing weakened poland by letting even ONE noble hold things up for a long time
What if they just needed a simple majority?
 
What about the Jews in Poland? If there was no Cossack invasion, wouldn't there be more Jews today. Also would the Jews be in a better position?
 
I think you could have a PoD after ww1. You already have a power vacuum. Maybe the war drags one a little longer for any number of reasons (say later US involvement) so you get Germany, desperate for soldiers, creates hundreds of thousands of Poles into a Polish Army which reinforces the Germans in the West. But, when Americans start appearing in strength, a revolution happens in Germany, say early 1920. All the little states setup in Eastern Europe are stronger though. The Russian Civil War lasts longer to and is more bloody, but still sees a much weaken Bolshevik Faction takes power in Russia, taking over the Caucasus and most of the Ukraine to. But when they move against White Russia and the Baltics, they form a united front with Poland against the Communists, this leads to a loose federation, under the leadership of the Poles, which pushes the Russians back in the Ukraine and into Russia proper, but eventually fights itself to a standstill and an eventual armistice takes hold, the Russians trade the Ukraine up to Kiev for whatever fell in Russia proper.

The Greater Polish commonwealth, is its common name, but official it's the Polish-Lithuanian-Latvian-Estonian-White Russian-Ukraine Commonwealth, each very autonomous within the framework of a Federal Union HQ-ed in Warsaw. Poland becomes the main raw material market of the US, which pumps billions into Poland throughout the 1930. French, maybe even more upset about ww1, and Poland remove the Nazis or a similar group after they break the ToV around 1934-5. Germany is divided up into 5-7 independent states and Poland is enlarged at the expense of East Prussia. Butterflies move the stock market crash back to about 1937-8. A Berian USSR invades Poland starting ww2 around 1945. Most of the outer commonwealth states are overwhelmed before France, much weakened by the depression, manages to rush reinforcements to Poland. Japan attacks in the east in alliance with France and Poland. The USSR eventual implodes with the US, under McCarthy , join the war. Russia fulls under the sway of a much richer Poland (it gets millions after ww2 under a Marshal-type plan.)

Although Poland is rarely called a super power, it is the only major power between the French-controlled Rhine and Japanese controlled Vladivstock.
 
Soyuz said:
Well, the title pretty much sais it all. I need ideas (or timelines) on how Poland in 2005 can be as large as Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth during its height, or even larger.

I'm looking for Poland that covers the current countries of Poland, Belorus, Ukraine, Kaliningrad and Lithuania for starters. I'll give you a bonus if it also includes the territories of Latvia, Estonia, Moldovia, Slovakia, and the (late) East Germany or everything together.

In 1920, the Polish armies seize Moscow and in 1921, the bolcheviks loose in the former Russian empire that is divided unto republics and smaller imperial Russia wich is factually divided between white army warlords...
1923 is the year of the 2 revolutions, pildusky seize power by a coup and he is overthrowed and decapitated by an another coup, he is replaced by the Greate Leader.
The greate Leader creates a totalitarian state(I.E. an efficient ideologically motivated non-democratic organisation) and a personnality cult, instaure ceaseless propaganda & secret police...
But he`s greate contribution is the industrialisation of Poland, helped by Germany who have to pay the debts imposed by the Versaille treaty.
The moto of the state is "We should be ruthless but faire", even thought the population is not rich, they have many social guarantees such as free education, health care, one day free of work every week(Generaly Sunday except for the moste vital jobs) etc.
In 1927, the jews launch an uprising in Warsawa but they are put down with toxic fuse-launchers and flamme-throwing armored cars, once they are crushed, the Leader put on the table a plan to "Solve the jewish problem once and for all!", it is the mappe of a giant penal fisherie on the coast, those industrial grinders have an enormous power...
In 1929, the wall-street crash marks the beginning of the greate depression, Poland escape unscanted, exportations increase over the following years.
The upper classes had been supportive upp to 1925 but they had grown increasingly warry of the new social laws coming into action after, they and the "traditional elites" where an obstacle to a modern state, they where not juste becoming utterly useless as the hard-work, hygien & Information programmes where succeding but also viciously dangerous...
In 1932, Germany broke down into civil war between commies and right-wingers, the army took over by force, Poland attacked Germany in 1934 and the campaign was a sucess. germany became a serie of facsitse puppet states under polish controle, peace & justice was instaured throught domination, parts of eastern germany where annexed.
As the polish people celebrated victory, the "elites" where denounced as treacherous plutocrats and traitors and send to work into deject factories(where sewage, trash and all waste are treated one way or the other) and the new Warsawa metro.
In 1935, the Polish armies occupied the baltic countries under the pretext of a border incident, everyon opposing the newcomers (or beeen known for anti-Polish comments prior to the invasion) where send to the deject-factories by the hundred of thousands.
In 1936 the Greate Leader was enought satisfied to decide that every worker would have the right for paid holidays 15 days every 6 months and distribute a people`s radio everyone could affor. With german industries under controle, Poland could still afford to accelerate it`s industrialisation, needless to say, by then, German unemployement had dropped to absolut zero(and those foolish enought to refuse any job opportunity went straight to the deject-factories).
In 1937, an another opportunity for war presented itself then Polish backed militants seized power in Austria, Italia intervened but their armies where less efficient than tought and the Poles broked their lines easely, the Greate Leader sparred Italia in exchange for an alliance, he and Mussolini would become very good friends in the following years...
In 1938, Poland demanded Czechoslovakia for the return of Teschen area, Czechoslovakia refused and was backed by Roumania & Yougoslvia France and Britain also backed upp the Czechs.
Poland invaded Slovakia ande declared it independent, Hungarya joined Poland and together they triumphed over Roumania and Yougoslavia, th Polish armie wasn`t numerous(the Polish population being already 52 millions in the territories that formed 1938 Poland in "OTL" alone due to natalistic politics) but extremly well armed.
The French and the Brits had backed off for now but they where arming themself, Italia finnished off Greece and Albania, the Greate Leader knew how he would win over the western allies(to robbe them off their colonies).
In 1939, Ukraine was invaded, the western part of the country was annexedand, the eastern part became a puppet state. The west declared war, Poland invaded Danemark and then Norvegia in May 1940. It was only a distraction, the main attack went throught Belgium to encircle the big bulk of British and French armies, capturing moste of them within a week, near the channel 450 000 allied soldiers where made prisonniers.
The poles left france to be occupied by the Italians and other polish allies(Hungarians, Bavarians etc), dismantled by regional nationalisme as their main army took over north africa from Italia and from North africa attacked in the middle-east and black africa, from the Baltic countries,submarines where ready for years, by 1941 england was isolated, it was only then that the Polish airforce started the battle of england, the RAF was out of fuel and couldn`t win the battle.
scotland and gallica gained independence, england itself became a join Irish-scottish protectorat.
All French and British colonies where divided between Italia, free city of Hambourg, Bavaria, Hungarya, Croatia, Japan and Poland.
the next step was to attack east, Poland became soon the master of the economically weake former Russian empire...
In 1945, war started between japan and the US, in 1948, the US started using atome bombs wich off course worried Poland extremly, in 1949, Japan and it`s asiatic co-prosperity sphere surrendered unconditionally to the US.
The US was a world power, much bigger than Poland and more industrialised, in 1953 the Polish army detonated it`s firste A bombe and tested it`s firste intercontinentale missile...
In 1956, the Polish armie produced it`s firste intercontinental strategic bomber, in 1958 a giant factory in north-eastern poland(Belaruss in "OTL") began producing these bombers one after one, in 1959, the Poles started producing dozens of intercontinental missiles, in 1960 H bombes where produced with the help of nationalist china also warry of US power and democraty and in 1961, join Chines-Polish intelligence completed the location of US arsenals...
In 1962 Polish giant "fisher boates" launched thermonuclear missiles to explode over the US, disabling US electronics so US bombers would cease working and never receive automtic launching orders, from Chines siberia, the polish bombers attacked, destroying the US arsenal in the midste of launche preparations.
Once Washington and US arsenal destroyed, the US surrendered, the west coast was occupied by nationaliste China(that also occupied the whole of asia), the north-east US was occupied by Poland that dismantled the industry to be shipped to Poland.
In 1963, Poland had the highest GPD in the world and by 1964, they reached the GPD of 1961 USA, in 1965 their industry was as strong as the US industry of 1961.
In 1973, the population of Poland was as high as the US(occupied or no) and in 1979 reached the number of 200 millions, at the same time China reached 1 billions inhabitants + 1 billion living in other asian countries(including annexed central asia).
After 10 years of peace, tensions began to grow between Greater Poland and China in a period that became known as the "Hot Peace".
 
I once wrote something similar

When I tried to create a timeline in which Alaska remains Russian and after the soviet revolution becomes a democratic republic ruled by the "whites" under the protection of the United States, and the Commonwealth, I accidently created a Polish superpower with a PoD no earlier than the late 19th century.
Here's the relevant parts of my timeline:



1894: Nicholas II ascends the throne and becomes the new Russian Tzar.

1896: Gold is discovered by the Klondike River (in Alaska). Population census in Alaska: 40,000 Russian civilians.

1900: Nicholas II grant permission to many Russian-American mining companies to open gold mines in Alaska; Klondike gold rush begins.

1904-5: Russo-Japanese War. Russia loses the war. Many soldiers decide to immigrate to Alaska in order to find their luck in the new mining industry, instead of returning home.

1905: Russian Revolution of 1905 - failed. Population census in Alaska: 120,000 Russian civilians.

1914: WW1 begins.

March 15, 1917: Nicholas II abdicated his throne; he and his family are arrested and held.

October 1917: Bolshevik Revolution: Lenin takes power.

1918: Russian Civil War begins: Whites vs. Red.

July 17, 1918: The Tsar and his family are murdered in Yaketerinburg.

1919: Polish-Soviet War begins.

1920: Kiev, Minsk and Wilno are captured by Polish forces.

1921: The Whites are defeated in all of Eurasian Russia; last white stronghold: Alaska, under the command of Admiral Aleksandr Vasiliyevich Kolchak.
American, British and Candian forces invade Russian Alaska to aid white forces.
Czech-Slovak Legion reaches Alaska, unites with Kolchak's army.

October 1921: Soviets send massive forces to Russian far east; the Red Army is finally defeated in the Polish-Soviet war. Poland capture all of Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus.
Soviets have no choice but to sign ceasefire treaty with the Poles in Riga.


1922: Pilsudski announce the creation of "Federation of Międzymorze", centered around Kiev.

1923: More soviet troops are sent to the eastern front. The Republic of Russia is declared in December, under the leadership of now president Kolchak; the capital city is New Petersburg.

1927: Soviet forces build on the Russian far east; massive Soviet settelment along the pacific shores.
The Federation of Międzymorze starts massive Polanization campaign among Ukranians and Belurassians. First official population census among federation citizens (after great debate about whether or not to conduct the census, fear of the already large ethnic tensions among it's many minorities):
60 million people, 60% Catholics (Poles and Catholic Ukranians), 30% Orthodox Christians, and 10% Jews.
The census was enabled after Pilsudski passes "Law of citizenship" in the Międzymorze parliament, Kiev, which states that "there are no more Poles, Lithuanians, Ukranians, Belarussians or Jews", but "all are Miedzymorzeans, of different religions, but the same ethnicity". All ethnic national movements are outlawed.


1928: Heavy industrialization throughout the Russian Republic, financed by Alaskan gold and oil, and American, Commonwealth and French investors.
German-Soviet relations tightened; German and Soviet troops secretly train in Soviet bases.

1932: Russian underground group, called "Free Russia", publish evidence about joint German and Soviet military trainings; both France and the Międzymorze Federation harshly condemn the violation of the Versailles Treaty; two months later, France and Miedzymorze sign sign military alliance.

1933: Hitler rises to power in Germany;
disconnect all relations between Germany and USSR.
Pilsudski start planning his attack againt Nazi Germany; try to talk France into agreeing on a joint attack against Germany because of it's violations of the Versailles Treaty.

January 14, 1934: German-Polish War begins; Poland invades East Prussia and Eastern Germany.
Britain, USA, RR and Italy condemn the attack.

February 1, 1934: France invade Germany from the west.

1935: Międzymorze Federation finishes conquest of Prussia in March 10th, annex it to the Federation of Międzymorze; France annex the Ruhr region. After 65 years, Germany is again divided.
In May, Pilsudski dies.

1936: Poland and the Republic of Russia sign the anti-Soviet alliance, against "a common foe of the Russian people and the citizens of the Międzymorze Federation".
Civil War begins in Spain.


1938: The USSR and Imperial Japan sign a secret alliance against the US, the Republic of Russia and the Federation of Miedzymorze.
Population census in the Republic of Russia: 15 million citizens, after purges in the Red Army and femine in the Caucasus brought mass immigration in the early 30s.
With no help from Nazi Germany, Franco's forces are defeated, and the war ends a year earlier. Spain becomes the Spanish Socialist Republic.

1939: The USSR annex Latvia and Estonia; the move in condemned world wide. Japan invades China and Korea.

July 1940: Mass building of Soviet troops and tanks in Russian far east and along the Miedzymorze-Soviet border.


This brings us into a second world war with Poland playing a major role in Europe. If you could somehow manage to take her from there to our times, it might stay a major power.
 
Soyuz said:
Well, the title pretty much sais it all. I need ideas (or timelines) on how Poland in 2005 can be as large as Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth during its height, or even larger.

I'm looking for Poland that covers the current countries of Poland, Belorus, Ukraine, Kaliningrad and Lithuania for starters. I'll give you a bonus if it also includes the territories of Latvia, Estonia, Moldovia, Slovakia, and the (late) East Germany or everything together.
Have a Cold War that turns hot, but with relative survival of the Warsaw Pact, and then, have that Poland occupy the Baltic States, Kaliningrad Oblast, Byelorussian SSR, and maybe even (parts of) Ukrainian SSR, and the glowing DDR.
 

Glen

Moderator
Nosb said:
I think you could have a PoD after ww1. You already have a power vacuum. Maybe the war drags one a little longer for any number of reasons (say later US involvement) so you get Germany, desperate for soldiers, creates hundreds of thousands of Poles into a Polish Army which reinforces the Germans in the West. But, when Americans start appearing in strength, a revolution happens in Germany, say early 1920. All the little states setup in Eastern Europe are stronger though. The Russian Civil War lasts longer to and is more bloody, but still sees a much weaken Bolshevik Faction takes power in Russia, taking over the Caucasus and most of the Ukraine to. But when they move against White Russia and the Baltics, they form a united front with Poland against the Communists, this leads to a loose federation, under the leadership of the Poles, which pushes the Russians back in the Ukraine and into Russia proper, but eventually fights itself to a standstill and an eventual armistice takes hold, the Russians trade the Ukraine up to Kiev for whatever fell in Russia proper.

The Greater Polish commonwealth, is its common name, but official it's the Polish-Lithuanian-Latvian-Estonian-White Russian-Ukraine Commonwealth, each very autonomous within the framework of a Federal Union HQ-ed in Warsaw. Poland becomes the main raw material market of the US, which pumps billions into Poland throughout the 1930. French, maybe even more upset about ww1, and Poland remove the Nazis or a similar group after they break the ToV around 1934-5. Germany is divided up into 5-7 independent states and Poland is enlarged at the expense of East Prussia. Butterflies move the stock market crash back to about 1937-8. A Berian USSR invades Poland starting ww2 around 1945. Most of the outer commonwealth states are overwhelmed before France, much weakened by the depression, manages to rush reinforcements to Poland. Japan attacks in the east in alliance with France and Poland. The USSR eventual implodes with the US, under McCarthy , join the war. Russia fulls under the sway of a much richer Poland (it gets millions after ww2 under a Marshal-type plan.)

Although Poland is rarely called a super power, it is the only major power between the French-controlled Rhine and Japanese controlled Vladivstock.

Right. Sounds like a power, and not a superpower.
 
Top