Plausibility check: could an European become emperor of China
- Thread starter alberich
- Start date
It seems extremely hard to see to me. There were certainly white rulers of Asian states, but these typically happened because a more powerful ruler gave them a lesser territory. There obviously isn't a more powerful ruler to give the entirety of China to someone.
The only other possibility is a European army installing him, but you'd need a hell of a powerful army to secure and maintain the person's rule. Even if you did have a European army that powerful, it would have to be a national army of a major European state, and you'd have to ask why they would concentrate so much power in a single man. If Britain or France or whoever decided to utterly subjugate China, they'd put them under governmental rule.
The one slim possibility is for a ceremonial monarch to have "Emperor of China" be added to their titles, similar to Victoria and "Empress of India", but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.
The only other possibility is a European army installing him, but you'd need a hell of a powerful army to secure and maintain the person's rule. Even if you did have a European army that powerful, it would have to be a national army of a major European state, and you'd have to ask why they would concentrate so much power in a single man. If Britain or France or whoever decided to utterly subjugate China, they'd put them under governmental rule.
The one slim possibility is for a ceremonial monarch to have "Emperor of China" be added to their titles, similar to Victoria and "Empress of India", but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.
How about in the mid/late 1500's European Powers become interested in Japan, and a wanked Netherlands ends up in a powerful position of influence in Japan by the end of the Sengoku Jidai. With backing from the European-based empire, a dutchman becomes Shogun. Japan then invades and conquers China, using a European-style Navy and supply system to win where they lost OTL. The white Shogun declares himself Emperor of China and starts and Dutch-Japanese conquest dynasty.
I have limited knowledge of china but i'll through in my two cents: a son of the emperor by a European woman who was educated in the west becomes a warlord/governor/powerful court official, eventually he overthrows his brother/uncle and becomes emperor himself. Possible POD could be anywhere from 1600 to 1900.
Before the late 19th century it is almost impossible for an imperial prince to be educated anywhere outside of China.
How about this? I might be bending the definition of "European" here....
A Steppe empire forms in the Black Sea Steppe and conquers Eastward accross the Steppe in the same way that the Mongols conquered Westward. This Steppe Empire comes to control a milti-ethnic empire stretching from the Carpathians to Manchuria but its ruling class is European.
A successor state of this grand empire "pulls a Qing" and eventually crosses the Great Wall and captures Beijing. Its ruler is installed as Emperor. This ruler is of European stock but may have been born in Asia.
A Steppe empire forms in the Black Sea Steppe and conquers Eastward accross the Steppe in the same way that the Mongols conquered Westward. This Steppe Empire comes to control a milti-ethnic empire stretching from the Carpathians to Manchuria but its ruling class is European.
A successor state of this grand empire "pulls a Qing" and eventually crosses the Great Wall and captures Beijing. Its ruler is installed as Emperor. This ruler is of European stock but may have been born in Asia.
RousseauX
Donor
Yeah probably: I mean China has had Mongol and manchu and Jurchen rulers and a white European probably isnt' going to be viewed as any more foreign than a Mongol until the 1800s
Granted, the price of emperorhood would be that said european emperor has to govern China as a Chinese emperor would, which means adopting the Confucian exam system along with keeping the Chinese language at least as one of the main languages of administration. The people whom you had to make a deal with amounts to the gentry class and once you give them the proper respect and the traditional avenues of entry into the central government they'll fall in line as long as you don't govern too badly
Once ethnic nationalism arises in the 19th century though they'll be out: then the differences between asian and non-asian are going to take on ethnic rather than cultural tones and it's a lot harder for a white person to be thought of as Chinese than a manchu or mongol
Granted, the price of emperorhood would be that said european emperor has to govern China as a Chinese emperor would, which means adopting the Confucian exam system along with keeping the Chinese language at least as one of the main languages of administration. The people whom you had to make a deal with amounts to the gentry class and once you give them the proper respect and the traditional avenues of entry into the central government they'll fall in line as long as you don't govern too badly
Once ethnic nationalism arises in the 19th century though they'll be out: then the differences between asian and non-asian are going to take on ethnic rather than cultural tones and it's a lot harder for a white person to be thought of as Chinese than a manchu or mongol
Skallagrim
Banned
Really, I'd have expected ALEXANDER IN KOREA CHINA to make an appearance in this thread by now....
But more seriously, I doubt the Chinese would be jumping to get a shot at this, ah, 'wonderful opportunity'. Why would they want some poorly educated barbarian from a sad fringe culture far away to be their emperor? One may say that they accepted other foreign emperors, and that such foreigners were no less foreign than Europeans... but those foreign rulers gained power by conquering China. I don't see a European power easily conquering China. It could be done, perhaps, but keep in mind that the only comparable achievement - the British conquest of India - was achieved only through an amazing sequence of lucky breaks for the British. China is even further away from the logistical base of any European power, it's already politically united (so harder to conquer piece by piece), and there is no guarantee that any lucky coincidence will be forthcoming. On top of all that, as OTL illustrates, it's way easier for European states to exert power in strategic places and force concessions from China, rather than actually conquering the whole vast empire.
Perhaps a European power could capture enough of coastal China, keep enough powerful Chinese people hostage, and install a European fellow as "emperor of (that part of coastal) China", claimg hegemony over all of China. In reality, inland China would be under the control of one or more native claimants to the throne, who would be viewed as far more legitimate by the Chinese people at large. (Maybe, just maybe, you could have multiple such claimants fight each other to exhaustion, allow the European emperor to exploit the resulrting weakness and the war-weariness of the populace. But that's far from a given.)
But more seriously, I doubt the Chinese would be jumping to get a shot at this, ah, 'wonderful opportunity'. Why would they want some poorly educated barbarian from a sad fringe culture far away to be their emperor? One may say that they accepted other foreign emperors, and that such foreigners were no less foreign than Europeans... but those foreign rulers gained power by conquering China. I don't see a European power easily conquering China. It could be done, perhaps, but keep in mind that the only comparable achievement - the British conquest of India - was achieved only through an amazing sequence of lucky breaks for the British. China is even further away from the logistical base of any European power, it's already politically united (so harder to conquer piece by piece), and there is no guarantee that any lucky coincidence will be forthcoming. On top of all that, as OTL illustrates, it's way easier for European states to exert power in strategic places and force concessions from China, rather than actually conquering the whole vast empire.
Perhaps a European power could capture enough of coastal China, keep enough powerful Chinese people hostage, and install a European fellow as "emperor of (that part of coastal) China", claimg hegemony over all of China. In reality, inland China would be under the control of one or more native claimants to the throne, who would be viewed as far more legitimate by the Chinese people at large. (Maybe, just maybe, you could have multiple such claimants fight each other to exhaustion, allow the European emperor to exploit the resulrting weakness and the war-weariness of the populace. But that's far from a given.)
ATP45
Banned
If Mongols could,why not European? They must become more chineese then locals,but that could be done.
Because the Mongols have an army with an absolute ruler at its head that could base themselves in China. If, say, the British conquered the place (a massive ask in itself) in the middle of the 19th Century, who is going to start the new dynasty? The British King? The Prime Minister? Some general?
Mongols with Yuan, Manchu with Qing. Um, I count...two. Altogether 365 years (Qing making up 268 of that). Out of...nine imperial dynasties and 1563 years of united China. Unless we're counting the foreign conquerors during the warring periods, then that number goes to 11 out of 83, more or less. Most of those not lasting more than a few decades at best. So it's rather unusual. Not unheard of, but very uncommon in Chinese history.
The Mongols had their powerbase right next to China, could seize the North China plain easily, had superior cavalry in the pre-gunpowder age, and also didn't last a century.
Can European nations even supply a full scale invasion on the other side of the planet at this point in history? Invading Japan is a chore (islands, 75% mountains, etc.) and, past that, Japan tried conquering China and Korea OTL in this period. It couldn't even manage conquering Korea, even with arquebuses and an century-of-war-tested army numbering over 100,000 strong and the Joseon's absolute lack of preparation (because they saw Japan as uncivilized. They'll pay mind to a foreign barbarian from the other side of the world who's managed to conquer the entirety of Japan with a massive force from across the world). European ships and supply systems don't do too well in uncharted territory in a land far away, especially considering the Korean navy did do well due to skillful use of Korea's coastline and traps.
I guess technically? Probably the best chance, since a full conquest of China's from Europe by sea is going to be a logistical nightmare even into the 1800s. Even then, the ruling class is likely going to become heavily Sinicized as the Qing Manchu did the longer they rule.
Overall, very, very unlikely. Need to depend on a disunited China.
Also, a European conqueror passing reforms in China to bring it to European standards probably won't settle well with the entrenched elite at any point in history. By that, I mean a coup.
RousseauX
Donor
It's not out of the question for a European power to conquer enough of China and to co-op enough of the gentry class during a time of chaos (post-Ming transition or some more chaotic situations), this isn't unique to China either, plenty of rulers in Europe and the Middle-East started out as foreigners who either established or co-oped enough of a lower nobility to secure their own rule for generations.
The important part of any pre-modern government is to recognize that the central government is going to have limited control over localities while the average peasant didn't matter. The key was always to secure the support of local elites and the lower nobility and China has a history of foreigners being able to win those people over by governing as Chinese emperors and giving the gentry-scholar class the traditional avenues to power.
RousseauX
Donor
Change the timetable of European colonialism in east/south asia and a Chinese collapse might give them a base of operations close enough to china to make logistics work
and it's a given that any foreign ruler of China is going to be sinicized
Could? Yeah, because almost anything's possible where people are concerned.
Would? No, too many people needed for the invading army, the logistics make it impractical and improbable. It's like universal brotherhood and the abolition of racial and religious prejudice in the 16th century, it's an idea that's too against human nature to survive outside a hothouse. Because, again, we're dealing with people and their preconceptions of 'outsiders'.
Would? No, too many people needed for the invading army, the logistics make it impractical and improbable. It's like universal brotherhood and the abolition of racial and religious prejudice in the 16th century, it's an idea that's too against human nature to survive outside a hothouse. Because, again, we're dealing with people and their preconceptions of 'outsiders'.
Well the British monarch was emperor/empress of India by virtue of the Brits being in charge, I don't see why a European colonial power might not grab China as a puppet and claim the title of Emperor for their monarch.
German China would be fun - not that the other powers would ever let the Germans do it OTL, but that's why we're here to make alternate timelines.
How about this for a rough sketch-up: The Prussians destroy France in an even more devastating Franco-Prussian War, then a decade or so later have a tussle with the Russians that break the Russian empire's back and plunge the country into total civil war. The British decide to come to terms with the new European power and arrange a multipolar power deal where hegemony over the world is shared with the German Empire. Now the Boxers do their thing in China and the Germans see their opportunity to have their own crown colony. The British agree, expecting such and endevor to tie up German ambitions for a while and keep their northern front in Asia secure. The German Kaiser adds 'Emperor of China' to his list of titles.
German China would be fun - not that the other powers would ever let the Germans do it OTL, but that's why we're here to make alternate timelines.
How about this for a rough sketch-up: The Prussians destroy France in an even more devastating Franco-Prussian War, then a decade or so later have a tussle with the Russians that break the Russian empire's back and plunge the country into total civil war. The British decide to come to terms with the new European power and arrange a multipolar power deal where hegemony over the world is shared with the German Empire. Now the Boxers do their thing in China and the Germans see their opportunity to have their own crown colony. The British agree, expecting such and endevor to tie up German ambitions for a while and keep their northern front in Asia secure. The German Kaiser adds 'Emperor of China' to his list of titles.
Maybe as a first step, the European power in question conquers Taiwan outright, and invests in making it able to sustain armies that will operate along the major rivers into the Chinese interior -powder mills, armories, magazines, that kind of thing. From there, they use their steamships to keep up their ammo supply, while procuring food and fodder in the are of operations itself. They could pretty handily crush any Chinese army that stands up in front of them with their superior training, morale, and firepower.
The war might begin by a swift attack on Beijing, where the new Emperor can be enthroned with all the proper Chinese rites. Below the new Emperor, the foreign rulers should strive to be less intrusive than the Manchus, relying on the local gentry for administration. Given the sheer selectiveness of the examinations, it's likely there will be a large class of failed candidates looking for other ways of getting into the provincial bureaucracy. It would also be prudent to build up a Chinese sepoy force for constabulary duties, or else appropriate the Green Standard and local militias by offering better pay and conditions.
The war might begin by a swift attack on Beijing, where the new Emperor can be enthroned with all the proper Chinese rites. Below the new Emperor, the foreign rulers should strive to be less intrusive than the Manchus, relying on the local gentry for administration. Given the sheer selectiveness of the examinations, it's likely there will be a large class of failed candidates looking for other ways of getting into the provincial bureaucracy. It would also be prudent to build up a Chinese sepoy force for constabulary duties, or else appropriate the Green Standard and local militias by offering better pay and conditions.
Considering we had an event like the Taiping Rebellion in our timeline why not use a variation on that? Rather than someone like Hong Xiquan it's a European missionary, with a previous career in the military, who gets knocked on the head or has a psychological incident and starts preaching a revised gospel and founds a new sect. Things start to spiral out of control from there, he puts his former military training to good use so that the rebels are even more effective, and eventually he's sitting on the throne having claimed the, new, Mandate of Heaven.