PC: North America Dominated by Different Great Powers
- Thread starter MarshalBraginsky
- Start date
This depends a lot on the TL, but I went here for rather small changes, so no Kalmar Union after the 1520s and no absence of French and English colonies. Northern Canada is just the place a Danish "empire" would fit, a) for the closeness to Greenland and b) the fact that it was never a settlers' colony but a traders' one.
Since in mid-17 c, before the loss of Scania, the pop of Denmark-Norway seems to have been about a million or less, while England hat more than five times as many people and France about twenty times, an out-settling seems impossible. Even the Netherlands hat twice as much as D-N.
The best I can see them doing is establishing an undisputed claim on the pink and purple areas of the following map - northern and central Canada and northern Alaska. In the 19th century, there might be a cautious settlement of the southern part of this area (red in the map) with its prairie soil.
But to reach this, I think you need a D-N that is neither wasting ressources in trying to reestablish a Kalmar Union nor dominance over northern Germany, ideally there should be long lasting peace with Sweden, as well. Perhaps Sweden is always engaged across the Baltic Sea and slowly losing to much ressources there for an attack on D-N, but looking still too strong for an attack by D-N. If this Sweden is strong in Ingria (and the PLC in Ukraine), then this TL's Muscovy might focus more on Pacific America and even reach California before the Spanish colonists get there - with important ports on Vancouver Island, at the mouths of Fraser and Columbia rivers, around San Francisco Bay plus ostrogs along these rivers. So they would try to control much of the northwestern greenish areas.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
With Sweden focusing more on consoidating Ingria, does this mean Muscovy would not have any ports in the Baltic then and better off having a port on the Black Sea?
No. No. No!
No Treasure Fleets! The Ming Period had a vibrant and extensive private overseas trade economy, it was just in the early Ming period that the whole forbidden to set sail policy occurred and it did not last long, because it was soon recognized as foolish. What China needs is a enterprising family (China is after all big on family) like the Zheng family that maintained a powerful pirate empire and kicked the Dutch out of Taiwan.
Also The Danish could just use German settlers like the Swedes did in New Sweden.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Denmark-Norway would eventually be the dominant power in North America, and Muscovy needs a genius that can actually think of expanding earlier into Siberia and the New World. If we're aiming for an early expansion, would either the early 1500s be suitable? We can also try to delay the colonization of the New World until say 1600s when Denmark-Norway can try their luck.
Well, in my suggestion there was a PoD around 1605, in order to keep the rest recognizable. You can still have the English settlemant in Virginia and New England fail, since there were hard pressed in the first years anyway. I don't know how difficult the establishment of Quebec in these years was and how probable a failure is. But in fact, an early failure of the settlements along the Atlantic seaboard might create an impression that the northern New World is unfit for settling and only good for trading - which, in turn, might strengthen the position of Danish traders in the Far North.
If you move the PoD deeper into the past, more things become vague. In the 16th century Spain was really dominant in the New World and guarded it jealously. Just think of what they did to French Florida in 1564. If you remove the Spanish from the New World completely, than everything is left dangling free and nothing can be deduced at all.
But completely keeping France, Spain and England out of the New World is very difficult. They have the best access to the Atlantic and to America and are populated enough to try and try again. Finally, they will succeed while the northern outliers like Scotland, D-N, Sweden or even the Netherlands have only a few shots before they have to quit.
One other possible candidate: We can have Portugal believe (or pretend to) that Terra do Bacalhau (Newfoundland) and the Terra do Lavrador are on their side of the Tordesillas line, so they start establishing bases for cod fishing.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Well that kinda works out well. I'm thinking that eventually I would want a PoD between the 1530s and 1605 in order to make it easier to manage. A Portuguese colony in Newfoundland would actually be a better fit than having the Portuguese establish Brazil, in which I may want either the Dutch or the Danes to seize it down the road, whichever nation is in prime position to do so.
Now I'm not sure as to Sweden's position will be, but if Denmark-Norway could have a colony in the Arctic Circle, what's going to stop Sweden from establishing "New Sweden" in other parts of the New World, for trading purposes only? Granted that those nations would be seeking to get a monopoly on furs to break the Muscovite fur trade monopoly, although I wonder if Muscovy can have enough population to even colonize Siberia, let alone Alaska. I don't know when Sweden began to start colonizing, but if Sweden could somehow conquer northern Norway just to gain access into the North Atlantic, then it could open up possibilites there.
It would be impossible for Spain to be removed from the New World, although I wonder if the Incan Empire can still survive on borrowed time would be possible. As for the Dutch, they could still control the territory of New Amsterdam but I'm not sure if it will be large at all.
Now I'm not sure as to Sweden's position will be, but if Denmark-Norway could have a colony in the Arctic Circle, what's going to stop Sweden from establishing "New Sweden" in other parts of the New World, for trading purposes only? Granted that those nations would be seeking to get a monopoly on furs to break the Muscovite fur trade monopoly, although I wonder if Muscovy can have enough population to even colonize Siberia, let alone Alaska. I don't know when Sweden began to start colonizing, but if Sweden could somehow conquer northern Norway just to gain access into the North Atlantic, then it could open up possibilites there.
It would be impossible for Spain to be removed from the New World, although I wonder if the Incan Empire can still survive on borrowed time would be possible. As for the Dutch, they could still control the territory of New Amsterdam but I'm not sure if it will be large at all.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
What year though can Muscovy begin to explore Alaska if they are going to start earlier? And what is the PoD in 1605 that you mentioned, westphalian?
Possibilities I think would be interesting to explore would be
Japan (under a more adventurous shogunate; perhaps Oda instead of Tokugawa)
Mali (had the supposed fleets discovered the Americas and returned)
Song China (if the Pod is far enough back)
Ming China (as mentioned earlier)
Al-Andalus (as mentioned earlier)
Navarre (had they not been absorbed)
Hanseatic League (if they had enough power)
Morocco (What discouraged them OTL?)
Kongo (maybe as a result of Malinese Discovery)
Bretagne (again, if it had not been absorbed by France)
Aragon (If 'Spain' was Portugal-Castille)
I know some are borderline ASB but with the right POD's many things are possible
obviously not all with a 1605 POD though
Japan (under a more adventurous shogunate; perhaps Oda instead of Tokugawa)
Mali (had the supposed fleets discovered the Americas and returned)
Song China (if the Pod is far enough back)
Ming China (as mentioned earlier)
Al-Andalus (as mentioned earlier)
Navarre (had they not been absorbed)
Hanseatic League (if they had enough power)
Morocco (What discouraged them OTL?)
Kongo (maybe as a result of Malinese Discovery)
Bretagne (again, if it had not been absorbed by France)
Aragon (If 'Spain' was Portugal-Castille)
I know some are borderline ASB but with the right POD's many things are possible
obviously not all with a 1605 POD though
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Japan, if they can but I'm not sure. If they can't even conquer Korea, then how can they conquer North America?
1605 was the first Danish expedition to reestablish contact with the Norse settlements in Greenland. In OTL, there was a 1619 Danish expedition to find the Northwest passage. I vaguely thought of a early Danish trip to OTL Hudson Bay just to give them a head start.
Since in 1607 the Virginia Company founded Jamestown and in 1608 Champlain founded Quebec, this is an interesting decade. Having the Danish succeed and the English and French fail (at this date) might go a long way. The French they will try again later, perhaps elsewhere. In England, King James was very interested in good relations with Spain, so if Virginia fails, he might prohibit further attempts in the New World.
Russia: In 1648 Semyon Dezhnev sailed as the first European through Bering Strait found Alaska and established an ostrog (fort) at the Anadyr River. But he was more or less forgotten. A hypothetical direct follow up would have been more or less led by individual cossack leaders, not by the Russian state, but once report of gold arrives in Moscow, that might change. So the TL might have a Russian-American company more than 100 years earlier.
New Sweden is very iffy. In OTL, it was the idea of Peter Minuit, a disgruntled employee of the Dutch WIC, who managed to convince the Swedish government to found a colony in an area the Dutch had claimed already. As soon as anything is changed in the previous years, New Sweden will probably vanish.
Since in 1607 the Virginia Company founded Jamestown and in 1608 Champlain founded Quebec, this is an interesting decade. Having the Danish succeed and the English and French fail (at this date) might go a long way. The French they will try again later, perhaps elsewhere. In England, King James was very interested in good relations with Spain, so if Virginia fails, he might prohibit further attempts in the New World.
Russia: In 1648 Semyon Dezhnev sailed as the first European through Bering Strait found Alaska and established an ostrog (fort) at the Anadyr River. But he was more or less forgotten. A hypothetical direct follow up would have been more or less led by individual cossack leaders, not by the Russian state, but once report of gold arrives in Moscow, that might change. So the TL might have a Russian-American company more than 100 years earlier.
New Sweden is very iffy. In OTL, it was the idea of Peter Minuit, a disgruntled employee of the Dutch WIC, who managed to convince the Swedish government to found a colony in an area the Dutch had claimed already. As soon as anything is changed in the previous years, New Sweden will probably vanish.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
And basically by not discovering tobacco, the English attempts to create a colony would surely fail. Tobacco was the reason why there were tobacco plantations. Where can Denmark find the Norse settlement in Greenland though? I mean, it's just the coastal areas where they presumably live, and there's also Iceland to consider.
Russia: Wouldn't a bigger Cossack population be suited to populate Siberia in order to have a good population base from which they can launch expeditions into Alaska? And then we still have to fnd a way for "New Sweden" to flourish, although Denmar might end up swallowing "New Sweden" if the Swedes actually establish it.
Russia: Wouldn't a bigger Cossack population be suited to populate Siberia in order to have a good population base from which they can launch expeditions into Alaska? And then we still have to fnd a way for "New Sweden" to flourish, although Denmar might end up swallowing "New Sweden" if the Swedes actually establish it.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
There is no Britain at that time, although preserving Scottish independence is one good way for a Scottish colony.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Only after 1776, but I'm hoping for a Scandinavianized 'United States' in this case or realistically, multiple NA nations.
You do not need even that - there is a reason why the winter of 1609/10 is called the Starving Time in early Virginian history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time
They cannot find them anywhere - they already died off between 1450 and 1500, unknown to the Europeans.
I am not sure how many people they need - they mainly traveled by river and established only small forts. I am clueless whether the typical Cossack riverboat would be able to cross the Bering strait and bring small groups from the mouth of the Anadyr River to the mouth of the Yukon. But I guess sea battles in small vessels betwenn Cossacks and Koloshi (Tlingit) would be interesting ...
Instead of a government-coordinated colonization, there might be a lot of Russian mountain-men similar to the OTL French-Canadian coureurs des bois.
That would be a good idea to establish a Danish colony outside the arctic area - someone else establishes it first and loses it to the Danes. A short-lived Swedish enterprise seems possible.
Flubber
Banned
Valdemar had a nice time line concerning Denmark colonizing the Penobscot River valley in Maine.
I've always wondered why a Sweden, a Denmark, or a Courland didn't stumble into the preexisting North American fur trading networks like France did and setup a HBC analog. It wouldn't take too many bodies.
I guess everyone was so fixated on the quick money to made from sugar and slaves that they couldn't see other opportunities.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
So if the Norse settlement is extinct by 1500, does this mean the Danish expedition to find those settlements would be a failure? So if the Danes can control parts of the New World, then how long would they be able to hold it? With Denmark's assumed domination in North America, does this mean Sweden would be forced to look elsewhere for establishment of trading colonies? I'm thinking if it was possible that North America could be controlled by Denmark-Norway, and parts of South America would be controlled by another nation.