I wonder is there any scenerio when Denmark with Norway is more ambitious player in colonial race. After all, they are not strangers to colonization - they had colonies in New World via Danish West Indies. Iceland and Greenland are at least in theory not bad places to support travel to North America. But of course - Denmark never was known from it''s large population, and that combined with their interests in north europe and constant financial problems could be serious limitation. Is there any way for Denmark with Norway in XVI-XVII to be more active in North America?
PC: Danish colonies on the mainland of North America
- Thread starter Emperor Lucas I
- Start date
There’s two example I have found.
In 1619 Jens Munk established a temporary settlement at Churchill River in Hudson Bay.
At the end of the Seven Year War there was a French plan to trade Louisiana to Denmark for Iceland, which would enable France to ise Iceland as a base for a invasion of Canada in the next war. I have a unfinished timeline in the link about that one. I would complete rewrite it, if or when I return to it.
I think the Jens Munk expedition have some potential. Let’s imagine the three Danish Greenland expedition from 1605-7 end up with Denmark establish a trading port at Nuuk. This enable Jens Munk to arrive at Nuuk (likely called Christianshavn or Fort Christian) and overwinter there the first year and enter Hudson Bay earlier in the year, this enable him to leave earlier and not lose most of his crew. Over the next few year there’s several expedition and the Danes set up trading post, where they trade fur from the Inuit and establish a claim to Hudson Bay. The French trappers then end up going to Copenhagen instead of London and Hudson Bay Company end up a Danish company. Danish trappers join the French trappers and some Norwegian and Forest Finns are settle in the region a few fishing hamlet/trading post are establish around the bay. The Norwegians and Forest Finns have a lifestyle which fit the boreal forest of Canada and they establish a slash and burn agriculture in the region. They never grow into a massive population but by 1800 there’s 15.000 “Forest Danes” (a new ethnicity which arose from Norwegians, Danes Forest Finns, French trappers and Metis mixing) in the boreal forest west of Hudson Bay. Here Denmark either upkeep the claim to the region like they did to Greenland and Iceland or UK annex it. If Denmark keep the claim we see Danish settlement in the Canadian plains provinces, if not Forest Danes grow into a third nation of Canada spread out in the northern territories of Canada.
- Charles I loses the English Civil War, but manages to flee to Virginia and keep control of the Southern colonies. Converts to Catholicism and becomes a puppet of Spain.
- Protestants hold onto power in Great Britain, and after Cromwell dies, gets a different family to rule Great Britain.
- Denmark captures New Sweden (otl Delaware) during the 2nd Northern War.
- The Dutch hold onto New Amsterdam (otl New York) due to Great Britain being weaker.
- Denmark encourages mostly Germans in Holstein along with Norwegians and some Danes to settle up the Susquehanna into modern day Pennsylvania.
- Protestants hold onto power in Great Britain, and after Cromwell dies, gets a different family to rule Great Britain.
- Denmark captures New Sweden (otl Delaware) during the 2nd Northern War.
- The Dutch hold onto New Amsterdam (otl New York) due to Great Britain being weaker.
- Denmark encourages mostly Germans in Holstein along with Norwegians and some Danes to settle up the Susquehanna into modern day Pennsylvania.
Intriguing. Danish Louisiana sure sounds like interesting POD.
Isn't Iceland Denmark's strongest asset in colonial race though? While everyone else have to travel directly from Europe and to North America, any potential expedition from Denmark and Norawy can do it in two parts. That's - among with Vinland of course - the main reason why I'm suprised that Denmark had so limited presence in New World in the first place actually.
That reminds me of this episode of South Park "Canada on Strike"
And how this helps Denmark exactly?
Know You asked Jürgen but I don't think he mind my preliminary answering-
Due to climate change the Western Settlement of Norse in southern Greenland was almost depopulated by 1340; 1408 the last recorded wedding was celebrated in the Eastern Settlement; 1410 the last ship arrive in Norway coming from Greenland.
1472 a Danish expedition skirts Greenland and goes on to probably Labrador and perhaps further on in NA waters.
1621 another Danish expedition travels to Greenland waters and into the Hudson Bay to try discover the Northwest Passage - most of the crew dies and the remnants return next year.
Since 1410 there was more than enough to do for the Danish Kings in holding onto the Kalmar Union. Post that there is a civil war in Denmark - Kings deposed and Reformation. Not much time for outfitting expeditions and braving the North Atlantic during the Little Iceage.
So I assume that the problem you are suggesting is that depopulation of Greenland makes any potential population risky and from XV-XVII kinda pointless. Because frankly, I see no reason why they should try to use Greenland as 2nd stop to North America.
So like I said previously - limited population and constant problems in Europe are main problems here. In theory Kings could try luck in New World to compensate for Swedish independence, but still - populations of both Denmark and Norway are relatively small even when combined, and why don't try to repopulate Norawy first?
So maybe the best POD is to Denmark with Norway to experience demographic boom between XV and XVII century? Mass migration of protestant population perhaps?
No I don't - it was depopulated and not visited till 1472 stuff like the Black Death and repopulation have some role in this.
Try repopulate Norway with Danes? Its a totally different countryside demanding its own set of skills of farmers which isn't around in Denmark.
Try their luck in the New World - well post Kalmar Union as I wrote a couple of Civil Wars and then wars with Sweden and then the Kings of Denmark had turned their eye south in competition with Sweden.
Demographic boom - whats to drive such? That was the time of more warfare with usual devastation of Jutland which provided some half the population of Denmarks.
Any colonial success for Denmark in North America requires Great Britain to be nerfed.
If the size of ones European population decided who dominated the New World, the three big languages of the Americas would be French, German and Italian. The truth is that Denmark could have sent as many settlers to America as England and later UK, in fact around half as many Danes migrated to Netherlands as English people to the USA. Of course Denmark would be unlikely to do so, I think that if Denmark ended up controlling any prime real estate (for settlement) like the St. Lawrence River, Danish settlement pattern would look pretty similar to the French one, except it would simply continue with a few thousand settlers every decade. I also find that Denmark would have adopted something similar to the French Canadian seigneurial system, but Danes would be far more willing to live under such a system, as Denmark functioned in similar manner and farmhand often migrated to from the islands to empty tenant farms in Jutland (as Jutland tended to see greater losses in Danish wars). So if Danish landlord paid the trip and accepted the rights Danish tenant farmers had, plenty of Danish farmhands would travel to Danish America to become tenant farmers.
Indeed but that was during the 17-18. cent's and it seems the peoples herearound want us to conjure up a huge wave of settlers for the New World during the late Middle Ages.
Indeed but that was during the 17-18. cent's and it seems the peoples herearound want us to conjure up a huge wave of settlers for the New World during the late Middle Ages.
They could always be conjured up, the main population restriction on Denmark was the lack of empty land to colonize, the moment these restriction was removed the Danish population saw a fast increase. Fundamentally Danish population restriction functioned by when supply of land was low the average marriage age rose and when the supply of land was high it fell, and as result the population boomed.
It just depends on when you want to start this - given the technical level it will be possible to move the peoples and settle them.
I have no problem with Iceland and Greenland as waystations just depends on the timeframe if these are going to be selfsustainable units or not - especially Greenland.
The real problem is getting the King to accept the idea and have it implemented - then off we go.
Yes, I personally have the opinion that while a colony should be established in the late 16th century ot early 17th century to get some prime real estate, settlement would only truly take off after 1660.
there's an argument that Hans Pothorst or Didrik Pining got to Newfoundland in 1476 already. So... theoretically, the Danes could have a massive headstart on England or France (in theory at least).
Absolutely - it would be a Royal decision but doable. Just have to find a POD and off we go.
i was actually wondering if it "could" be done for my TL. That Spain's like "we were first" at Tordesillas, and then Denmark, Portugal/Flanders go "uh...no you weren't" producing evidence of their landings in 1476 (under Pothorst/Pining) and 1486/7 (van Olmen/Benhaim)Absolutely - it would be a Royal decision but doable. Just have to find a POD and off we go.
That would be the first step - and Denmark and Portugal had some history of cooperation on Crusades and the Royals intermarriage.
Now You just need to determine how's resources pooled and the settlers shipped off without too many ships lost at sea and too many dying for varios reasons en route or ashore. Perhaps Pining and Pothorst' tales are just so tempting that it has to be done!
Tordesillas was really just an agreement between Spain and Portugal. The other countries didn’t care about it.
