PC: Ancient-style Galleys with cannon?

[dandan_noodles]

So ancient galleys, like triremes and quinqueremes, were much faster than early modern galleys like fought at Lepanto. This has a few different causes, but as I understand it, the biggest factor is the shift from shell-first to frame-first construction, which made them much more resistant to ramming; a Venetian style galley would displace about twice as much as a quinquereme, and with fewer oars and oarsmen. They were equipped with cannon, but at least for the Spanish and Ottomans, this was primarily a boarding weapon; a ship's guns were unlikely to get off more than one shot before prows were locked for boarding. The Venetians would fire from long enough range to reload at least once, but they were the exception in this period.

If you put cannons on an ancient-style galley (i.e. the kind fast enough to ram and light enough to be vulnerable to ramming), would they be able to sink similarly constructed galleys outright before they got into boarding or ramming distance? Would they be firing from longer distances, or would their short range fire simply be more effective than against Early Modern style frame-first galleys?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

You would have to put much lighter cannon on such ships, they aren't built heavy enough to handle the weight or recoil of the canon used by galleys of the 15th century on. So you have much lighter cannon, shooting at much heavier built ships. A classical galley does not want to get in a shooting match with a Renassaince Galley, it will lose unless it has a great numerical advantage. Cannonballs that will cause modest damage to a Venetian Galley could shatter a Roman Quinquereme outright

 

[RGB]

What size guns are we talking about? Probably small, right? Recoil shaking apart the construction was a very real possibility otherwise.

For that matter not sure if the rams would be particularly effective either. Are there accounts of smaller warships ramming much heavier ones in the Classical era?

 

[RodentRevolution]

If you put cannons on an ancient-style galley (i.e. the kind fast enough _ram and light enough to be vulnerable to ramming), would they be able to sink similarly constructed galleys outright before they got into boarding or ramming distance? Would they be firing from longer distances, or would their short range fire simply be more effective than against Early Modern style frame-first galleys?

The odds are terribly against it. As RGB points out above Trireme and Bireme style vessels would not be able to mount cannon of the sort of 60 pounder (roughly 7.5"/190mm diameter ball) class that Renaissance galleys stuck in their bows and given the limited number of bow guns you could work it was hard even for weapons of that sort of calibre to actually sink or disable ships. Given evidence from the Spanish Armada of 1588 versus the English fleet lighter cannon simply punched small holes in hulls which really did not tend to discommode ships much at all.

 

[Behemoth]

Others have pretty much covered my ideas on the matter. There is also the matter of naval tactics to consider. Prior to, I would say, the mid to late 1600’s, boarding an enemy ship to engage in combat was more commonly used than having the ship being used solely as an artillery platform.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

For that matter not sure if the rams would be particularly effective either. Are there accounts of smaller warships ramming much heavier ones in the Classical era?

Not sure about ancient accounts, but the reason rams fell out of use by the middle ages was that improved shipbuilding techniques made ramming ineffective. Unless shipbuilding had somehow regressed by the renaissance, I doubt ramming would be enough to sink a 16th-century war galley.

 

[dandan_noodles]

What size guns are we talking about? Probably small, right? Recoil shaking apart the construction was a very real possibility otherwise.

For that matter not sure if the rams would be particularly effective either. Are there accounts of smaller warships ramming much heavier ones in the Classical era?

There are; after Philip V's flagship, a "ten", got stuck in a triemiolia after ramming in the Battle of Chios, it was attacked and destroyed by two fives, and IIRC skilled sailors like the Rhodians were expected to be able to handle the large polyremes in open waters.

You would have to put much lighter cannon on such ships, they aren't built heavy enough to handle the weight or recoil of the canon used by galleys of the 15th century on. So you have much lighter cannon, shooting at much heavier built ships. A classical galley does not want to get in a shooting match with a Renassaince Galley, it will lose unless it has a great numerical advantage. Cannonballs that will cause modest damage to a Venetian Galley could shatter a Roman Quinquereme outright

Right; shooting matches in general were the exception throughout the whole history of galley warfare, and the battery on Renaissance galleys generally weren't long range shipkillers, but antipersonnel weapons to be fired point blank. The Ottomans even loaded theirs with grapeshot for galley combat. In this hypothetical, the Spanish/Ottoman five would be closing as fast as possible to shear off oars and diekplous their formation, rather than trading fire at range. If the numbers I've looked at are accurate, it looks like an ancient galley's cruising speed isn't much less then a Renaissance galley's sprint, so it's unlikely they'll get more than one volley off.

Are there any set ratios for ship displacement to weight of forward battery? Weight of battery might not tell the whole story in terms of combat effectiveness; if the quinquereme was using its cannon like its Spanish/Ottoman successors, i.e. to kill deck fighters, then more, smaller guns might be able to get more shot out for close range killing power.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Right; shooting matches in general were the exception throughout the whole history of galley warfare, and the battery on Renaissance galleys generally weren't long range shipkillers, but antipersonnel weapons to be fired point blank. The Ottomans even loaded theirs with grapeshot for galley combat. In this hypothetical, the Spanish/Ottoman five would be closing as fast as possible to shear off oars and diekplous their formation, rather than trading fire at range. If the numbers I've looked at are accurate, it looks like an ancient galley's cruising speed isn't much less then a Renaissance galley's sprint, so it's unlikely they'll get more than one volley off.

Are there any set ratios for ship displacement to weight of forward battery? Weight of battery might not tell the whole story in terms of combat effectiveness; if the quinquereme was using its cannon like its Spanish/Ottoman successors, i.e. to kill deck fighters, then more, smaller guns might be able to get more shot out for close range killing power.

Shooting matches were the exception because of the fact that cannon could not easily sink an opponent. If your opponent is much lighter built then a Renaissance Galley, then yes it could be sunk fairly easily. Even grapeshot might be a risk to a ship built lightly enough. One volley could very well be enough to cripple a lightly built galley, if the sides are not thick enough then grape could go through them and cripple the rowers at close range

No set ratio, and it isn't just displacement you have to worry about, it is how well your gun is braced and how strong the ships structure is. You can have low displacement vessels that are very strong and braced, or high displacement ones that are not

 

[RGB]

You can have low displacement vessels that are very strong and braced, or high displacement ones that are not

Would an example of bomb ketches be appropriate here? They often carried weaponry that would have wrecked a sloop of war designed for long guns and 6-pounders despite being of similar tonnage.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Eh... Didn't Venice put cannons on their galleys in the late middle ages?

 

[dandan_noodles]

Shooting matches were the exception because of the fact that cannon could not easily sink an opponent. If your opponent is much lighter built then a Renaissance Galley, then yes it could be sunk fairly easily. Even grapeshot might be a risk to a ship built lightly enough. One volley could very well be enough to cripple a lightly built galley, if the sides are not thick enough then grape could go through them and cripple the rowers at close range

No set ratio, and it isn't just displacement you have to worry about, it is how well your gun is braced and how strong the ships structure is. You can have low displacement vessels that are very strong and braced, or high displacement ones that are not

I think there are two broad contexts to think about: ancient galleys armed in modern style, and modern galleys built in ancient style. For the first scenario, shell-first construction is more or less all you've got, and the question is how naval tactics would adapt to the new weaponry; in the second, you're weighing speed and maneuverability against firepower and endurance.

At least for the first scenario, are there any good guesses as far as what an ancient penteres would be able to mount in terms of artillery? Just iron swivel guns, or lighter cast bronze guns too?

 

[Captain Jack]

A point about the Venetians; they emphasized the use of the cannons on their galleys far more than any of the other operator. There's an incident which I think comes from a supply fleet coming into one of the beseiged Venetian ports in Crete or Cyprus. Anyway, the Venetians, 3 ships IIRC, were able to sink the entire Ottoman blockading squadron, 5 ships IIRC, with soleley cannon fire. They never came into range for boarding or grapeshot precisely because they were at a disadvantage in such a contest. Additonally, the engagement was considered fairly routine at the time and the result was not seen as particularly extraordinary. To me, this indicates there really was a lot of variation between nations in the way they designed and used their ships.

 

[Timaeus]

Would these kind of cannons be able to stand on a trireme?