Pagan Europe, Christian Asia

MAlexMatt

Banned
You'll have to do something to get Christianity to spread more actively in Asia. IOTL in India Christianity formed a consensus with Hindu society- the Syrian Christians of India effectively formed a caste group of their own.

The thing is that at this time period, Hinduism is actively reasserting itself in South India- Buddhism is on the decline. It's not a very fertile theological ground for Christianity because it's running into a very vigorous Hindu revival.

Of course, a Christian off-shoot that manages to adapt to and absorb/meld into the Hindu tradition would benefit from that revival.

I can't imagine as philosophical a society as antique India sitting around and not discussing a more popular, widespread Christianity.
 
I've also got a question: in any AH, would there be three kinds of Christianity like Roman, Greek and Persian Christianity? I'm just curious.
 
Probably far more by the time all is said and done.

At the moment there are at least 3 Christianities - The Syrian church, Jerusalem exodites that are in the Arabian deserts...a Keralan church, and Anatolian sect as well. Of them, the Anatolian church even as early as 100 AD has diverted significantly from the 'norm' of Christianity - taking on a quadrinitarian belief, integrating the Emperor (with there being, as I think I mentioned in a post, an apocalyptic tradition tied to his mortal conversion in certain communities).
 
I see. Well, I was wondering if a Persian style Christianity would take root in other parts of Asia, and even in the Australian continent.
 
The link is quite helpful; thanks a lot Karelian, I haven't looked at it thoroughly, but I will do so when I have more time.
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69 CE - Vespasian becomes Emperor in the aftermath of the Year of the Four Emperors.

73-85 CE - A tiny Pauline cult in Rome itself grows, mostly in small cells of perhaps a few dozen men and women at a time. Several such cells spread southward, into Campania, where they were persecuted. With eruption of Mt Vesuvius and the destruction of Pompei and Herculaneum, the cults in surrounding towns are blamed on the eruption and persecutions begin in earnest, with most impressed as gladiators in the fabled Campanian schools. The Christian gladiators often fall into one of two groups; either they fight poorly, intentionally seeking out their opponents blades, seeking martyrdom, or they fight “like an uncaged beast, rabid and hungry for flesh” as one contemporary account of the games put it. By 85 CE, Christians are all but extinguished or go so far underground as to become just another curious foreign cult.

73 CE - Ananias marries, Julia, daughter of Tigranes VI of Armenia. As Tigranes VI is distantly related to the Herodian kings, Ananias sees this as an opportunity to legitimise his rule through blood. Through his insistence, Julia converts back to Judaism. However, the marriage is rather unpopular.

75 CE - Gilad Ananias born in Jerusalem to Ananias I Ananias.

77 CE - Mattathias and Leo are born as twins to Ananias I Ananias and his wife Julia.

78 CE - Joseph, disciple of Thomas, is invited by Grand Prince Kanishka to attend the Fourth Buddhist Council, that the Buddhists might learn of this new faith in Kashmir and Bactria. In a mere four years, the Christians spread widely amongst the Buddhists of the area who saw Christ as another Bodhisattva.

79 CE - Vespasian is succeeded by Titus. The Flavian Ampitheatre is opened slightly ahead of schedule and hosts Vespasian's funerary games.

81 CE - Titus catches a fever during a trip just outside of Rome. He remains ill for several weeks before recovering. However, he is left feeble. His brother Domitian, originally planning to have Titus killed, cancels his plans and in an act of fraternal devotion does his brotherly duty, becoming the regent for the ailing

81 CE - Gnaeus Julius Agricola leads an expedition to Ireland and installs on the island as king of the south-eastern coast Titus Legitimatus. However, despite local support and the strength of a legion plus its auxiliaries, the Roman forces are too small to pacify much beyond the fort they establish at Menapia, where Titus ruled over the subjugated Menapii and Coriondi tribes at the head of this Romano-Irish client-state.

86-88 CE - Titus begins a puntitive expedition against the Dacians. Titus sends Domitian to end Dacian raids on the Roman frontier. Zealous agents working on Domitian's orders kill Titus with poison when a letter from Domitian suggests that Titus' use as a puppet has long since faded. A peace between Dacia and Rome is concluded after a series of damaging defeats bloodies Dacia, ruining their capacity to wage war in the near-term.

90 CE - Gilad succeeds Ananias I.

94 CE - Titus Legitimatus wills his kingdom to Rome upon his death.

95 CE - A rebellion in the Imperial Court, lead by the Imperial Chamberlain, fails when Titus Petronius Secundus warns Domitian

100-104 CE - Hannah, youngest daughter of the late Ananias I, is married to the heir apparent of Petra, Rabel. Within four years, Rabel II died, and Rabel III came to the throne. Thanks to the strong-willed Hannah, along with various Petran nobles sympathetic to Jerusalem and the

107 CE - Domitian dies. A skilled commander from the Germanic frontier ascends to the throne. This general, Trajan, served in Germania and Britannia, cultivating a relationship with Domitian, even commanding two legions in the Dacian campaigns, taking on the victorious agnomen Dacianus. Trajan Dacianus, as he was known upon his ascension to the imperial throne, would prove to be a skilled ruler.

120 CE - Christians exodites from Jerusalem settle amongst the Arabian tribes. Most assimilate into the Jurhum tribe. Also about this time, a shrine is established at the site where James is believed to have died in the desert. The oldest monastic order of all Christianity, the Jacobean Order, is founded as a monastery grows around the shrine.

123 CE - Dacia is fully integrated into the Roman Empire. By this year as well, the Bosporan Kingdom and other territories along the northern coast of the Black Sea started to drift away from Rome, coalescing into a kingdom, known as Cimmeria in Roman chronicles.

124 CE - Trajan dies. Hadrian takes up the mantle following Trajan.

124-137 CE - Trajan's reign is dominated primarily by peace. He travels widely,

132 CE – Simon Bar Kokhba and Akiva ben Joseph, two Judean generals, lead a rebellion against Gilad Ananias. Aided by Gilad's brother Mattathias, they rise against Gilad, claiming that he is just a Roman puppet. The Jewish Civil War erupts, and lasts four years. Gilad's authority is broken despite the fact he retains the throne for another fifteen years.

147 CE - Gilad Ananias dies, and his elderly brother Leo ascends briefly. Within three months, Leo is dead, and Joshua Ananias takes the throne.

168 CE - A coup deposes Joshua Ananias, Mattathias Ananias (Joshua's brother) ascends to the Judean throne. The coup doesn't last more than a few months, as Ananias II, Joshua's eldest son, relcaims the throne.

173 CE - Joshua Ananias, with tentative approval from Rome, inherits the Nabataean kingdom, giving the Judean kingdom the whole of Nabataea, before bequeathing the Sinai to Rome. The land came to Judean hands when Malichus III dies without a child and Joshua claims the territory as rightfully his as a custodian. Joshua creates the title of Protector of Petra, considering himself as king only of Jerusalem.

173-207 CE - Ananias II pacifies Nabataea, integrating the territory while also fighting puntitive campaigns against Christians from deeper in the desert that have taken up the raiding and nomadic lifestyle of the desert tribes.

191 CE - Vasudeva I is the new Kushan king. As part of his ascension, he also converts to Christianity and builds in Purushpura the first officially funded church in the Kushan Empire, the Church of Saint Thomas. At the centre of the church is a large statue of St Thomas in the Greco-Indian style, an altar under it containing the bones of St Thomas.

207 CE - Ananias III ascends upon the death of Ananias II.
 
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No one interested any further it seem?

Hmm.

Well, another update'll be coming later this week now that the holidays are over and all that.
 
I wonder if Christianity will become dominant in Asia, and I also wonder if Islam has been butterflied, or if a different faith will develop instead of Islam.
 
Data - that's the plan. As for Islam...I doubt it will come around; I see Christianity in Arabia playing a similar role, and Arabian Christianity of the 5th and 6th centuries may very well take on a similar mentality, but we shall see - that is, if you are wondering if this will 'civilise' the Arabs after a bloody nomadic crusader period...which may very well also, should the Steppe peoples not get settled, be the impetus for their conquests. But that's centuries away. I don't want to lock myself into anything just yet. If Mohammad decides to write, I expect he and his inner circle will be along the lines of Augustine and the like, essentially fully codifying and being the basis, that seminal influence which will basically guide (Arabian) Christianity for at least a millennium.

A teaser as I keep toiling away at the next several years of stuff.

Christian-IndianArt.png


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Coin of Vasudeva, taking the Christian name of Yoohanan (John in the Kushan tongue). This is a coin from the first year of the Kushan king's reign, likely created after the King's conversion (as evidenced by the stylised Jesus on the reverse of the coin). You might notice that Jesus carries in one hand a trident. In India, the trident is a symbol of the Trinity in art - it carries none of the satanic message of OTL. The trident in early Indian Christianity was borrowed from the Hindu faith, where some in India drew parallels between Jesus and Shiva, specifically in their similar roles played in the End Times. The inscription on the obverse reads: "Vasudeva, King of Kings".

Middle
Mary, mother of Jesus, as portrayed on a Kushan tin coin, minted sometime in the rein of Maththaayi (Matthew) I (225-243 CE).

Bottom
A Kushan statue of St Thomas, formerly adorning the altar in Purushpura, dating from the late 2nd Century.
 
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Pagan, of course, is a large, vague, and somewhat hard to define term. However, for the sake of our timeline, I think that it would suffice to say that I use the term to refer in reference to European polytheistic religions, folk beliefs, and their associated mythologies, rituals, and beliefs. Of course, this is when referring to Europe as a whole - the term Pagan Europe being analogous to OTL's terms of The West or Christendom, at least in the sense of referring to the continent as a whole as a single unified political or religious entity in the post-Roman era.
 
Okay, another update for all of you at last!

Sorry it took so long. Also, apologies for the overlap, but there are a number of events I realised I left out in the previous update as I was filling it in. It should be here now, and all updates should be more or less without any overlap beyond a few years.
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115 CE - Roman control in Syria is loosened briefly when Antioch is levelled in an earthquate. Trajan institutes a grand rebuilding project, including the construction of a triple wall around the city.

125 CE - Rome looses control of Mesopotamia as Hadrian shores up his power in the west, putting down small rebellions in Gaul and Hispania.

137 CE - Rome has yet another new emperor. Hadrian's son, 25 year old Lucius becomes the new Augustus. This would be the first in a series of direct successions where the father Augustus would give the son the Imperial throne upon his death.

137-145 CE - Rome wars with the Parthians after they cross over the Euphrates and raid eastern Syria. Rome wins the long war, but only with Armenian and Judean help when at last the allied armies conquered the land between the two rivers.

147 CE - Joshua ascends to the throne of Judea, succeeding his father, Gilad I.

148 CE - Cimmerian Kingdom along the Black Sea collapses due to a succession crisis. The Kingdom is succeeded by a bevy of city states that compete with each other and also serve as a very useful speed bump against the Sarmatians and Scythians that sometimes press from the north down into Roman territories.

168 CE - Mattathias briefly becomes King after a coup deposes Joshua. Ananias II deposes Mattathias in a counter-coup, restoring the rightful sucession.

173 CE - Malichus III dies childless in Petra. Kingdom is given to Ananias II.

174 CE - Lucius dies, aged 62 in a coup against him lead by the Praetorian Guard. His middle son, Marcus Aelius Pontius, ascended. He promptly disbands the guard, committing all Praetorians and their descendants damnatio memoriae. Marcus Aelius institutes the Protectores Domestici, the Guardians of the House, an imperial bodyguard to replace the Praetorians.

189 CE - Marcus Aelius dies, poisoned by his wife, who takes the throne. Rome's first imperatrix, Cornelia Faustina takes the throne. Civil War erupts between Cornelia and her inner circle and countless generals who all take the chance that has presented itself to grab for power.

191 CE - Britannia, under Clodius Albinus, rebels. After expelling those who were loyal to the Imperatrix, he takes command of the full Roman army on the island. He also convinces the Romano-Irish client state to the west to support his uprising. Britannia thus falls out of the Roman Empire, despite attempts by Rome in the coming several centuries to reclaim the territory.

193 CE - Judea, under Ananias II, refuses to send troops levied by her Roman ally to quell generals rising up in Syria and Asia Minor. Gaius Pescennius Niger marches on Antioch, but is defeated north of the city by the Romans. Pescennius' army retreats south, into Judea, where Ananias, gives the defeated general a warm welcome. Pleas from the Empress Cornelia Faustina are refused.

196 CE – Pescennius marches from Sepphoris at the head of three legions, Legio II Traiana Fortis, Legio VI Ferrata, and XV Apollinaris. In the course of a 7 week siege, Pescennius conquers the city and establishes himself over eastern Asia Minor, as well as the remaining Roman territories in northern Mesopotamia.

207 CE - Ananias III comes to power in Judea.

208-214 CE - Ananias III leads a series of expeditions from Petra to pacify the nomads to his south.

224 CE - Ardashir, satrap of Fars, overthrows the Parthian empire and declares a new dynasty; the Sassanid Empire. Ardashir ruled from Ctesiphon.

225 CE - Yoohanon I, dies. Maththaayi, Yoohanon's son, takes the throne. Capitalising upon the death of Yoohanon, as well as the unrest that was rampant in those last years of the previous king's life. Immediately, Maththaayi cleared out those he saw most at fault for Yoohanon's troubles in those last years. Amongst these, numerous Hindi and Buddhist opponents of Christianity were high on the list. These men were given a choice – convert to Christianity and then retire to a confiscated and converted Buddhist monastery now inhabited by Thomasine monks.

226 CE - Gilad II takes the throne of Judea. He rules independently for only three years before madness forces a regency by Mahol for the remaining ten years of Gilad's life.

226-228 CE - The Sassanids declare war and invade from the west. Ardashir I leads an army of some 150,000 infantry and 40,000 cavalry, plus various allied armies including 15,000 Armenians and a further 25,000 assorted others, into Bactria in five major columns in 226. The Kushans, lead by Maththaayi, give battle over the course of the following two years with an army numbering perhaps 100,000 all told. By and large, the Kushan were defeated until they came to a place eight miles south-west of Purushapura along the Bara River. There, the Kushans took up a position on the east bank. The Sassanid forces were forced to ford the river into the smaller Kushan army. A stern defence and swift counter-attack cut down many in the Sassanid army, with the majority of the rest of the casualties drowning in the river during the chaotic retreat when Ardashir realised the Indian line would not give. In a single day's battle, Ardashir lost some 35,000 men according to sources, and with the Roman attacks in the east, the Shahanshah knew he could not split his forces so. Though the Persians left early in 227, a treaty was not concluded between the Sassanids and Kushans until 228, when the Persians recognised the western borders of the Kushan empire as the northern and eastern banks of the Oxus river to its confluence with the Sughd, which in turn formed a portion of the Kushan's north-western border.

229 CE - Mahol's Regency begins when it becomes clear that Gilad II is thoroughly unfit to rule.

232 CE - Ardashir instates as co-regent his son, Shapur, planning to groom the man for the throne one day. Over the next eight to ten years, Ardashir uses Shapur as his eyes in the west, along the Tigris River, the western border of the Sassanid empire, and also along the southern frontiers as well, where the nomadic tribes has begun to regularly press up along the western shores of the Persian Gulf.

238 CE - The beginning of a westward migration of nomadic peoples across Central Asia after a campaign ordered by Cao Rui of Cao Wei and lead by Sima Yi turns its attention from the east to the west where the Qiang people, often troublesome for the kingdom based out of Xuchang, are again subjugated.

239 CE - Due to pressure relieved by Wei turning its attention westward, Gongsun looks to Goguryeo, attempting to conquer much of the kingdom. After allying with Silla and Baekje, the three states invade Goguryeo. Gongsun Yuan over the next two years manages to conquer territory up to the Yalu River along the coast. This show of force in the Korean Peninsula convinces Wei to shelve plans for a campaign for the time being, fearing that the warlord's Korean allies might march to his aid since they too managed to conquer portions of the Goguryeo kingdom as well. Missions intended to go to Wei to join in a military expedition to reclaim the conquered territory taken by Gongsun Yuan are put off.

239 CE - Mahol becomes King of Judea upon the death of King Gilad II.

240 CE - Shapur ascends to the throne. He turns Sassanid attentions northward, towards the Caucasus and Armenia, who over the previous decade had floundered back and forth between Rome and Persia depending on the waxing and waning of each power's relative strengths.

246 CE – Judea conquers Syria, Maritime Palestine, and the Sinai from an ever-weakening Rome. The land connection in the east between Asia Minor and Egypt is cut off through Roman lands. In exchange for no further conquests, Rome agrees to continue to ferry grain along the roads on the Levant, paying exorbitant tolls to do so. However, it does sate Mahol, who needs to fill the treasury after the incredible expenses of Gilad's expedition alongside Rome into Persia, as well as the costs of maintaining order in the Jewish state due to Gilad's madness. Taxes are raised and the currency devalued, in large part due to the devaluation of Roman coins by Rome itself to take care of its own ever-increasing fiscal problems. Coastal Syria is traded in exchange for protection to the Antiochian state established by Gaius Pescennius Niger, and currently ruled by Flavius Titus Pescennianus, the adoptive grandson of the conqueror of Antioch.

251 CE - Shapur leads an expedition from Ctesiphon against the Roman Empire, seeking to take the Roman province of Assyria, laying between the Tigris and Euphrates, as his own. Further campaigns in the years to come batter also at the Kushans in the west. Both campaigns do little but drain the Persian treasury. In the west, Rome does cede Mesopotamia eventually, but only because it has grown too expensive to protect. In the east, the Kushan Empire pays a trifling tribute as a symbolic gesture to the Sassanids.

c. 264 CE - Exiles from south-western China arrive in Purushapura. They are received by Maththaayi III, who allows them refuge in his kingdom. They are the first of a large number of Chinese exiles who, over the coming half-century or so, would flood the Kushan empire, who by this point has been largely Christianised after the conversion of Yoohanon (born Vasudeva) in 192. Over the previous seventy years, the nobility and intellectual elite had discussed and slowly converted to this new religion, often incorporating as saints or angelic figures their old gods and folk figures. Amongst them is the disgraced, ineffective, and easily swayed Duke of Anle, formerly the Emperor of Shu, who was exiled by the Prime Minister of the northern kingdom of Wei from the Middle Kingdom.

265 CE - A Kushan general, known as Mamgo, is amongst the Chinese exiles, leading his cavalry force against Scythian raiders along the Scythian frontiers. Finding that Kushan territory is not easy to raid, the Scythians turn their attention westward, riding over the Aral and Caspian Seas in the years to come, with several. Kushan Christians are amongst the various slaves and prisoners the Scythians take with them before heading west.

268 CE - King Maththaayi III institutes a large building project, constructing a series of monasteries along the Oxus River, and a series of churches in Samarkand. Liu Shan, Duke of Anle, is amongst the Chinese exiles who have converted to Christianity, and headed one of these temples. Monastic records indicate he oversaw the completion of the construction, wrote the monastery's tenets, and lived a simple life in stark contrast to the extravagant life that had lead to his downfall in Chengdu before dying in 272. He is recorded in Kushan records as either Laushen or the Riverland Duke.

278 CE - The Cimmerian states, successors to the kingdom that ringed the northern parts of the Black Sea, receive the first of a series of migratory waves of Scythians that ransom cities, taking over those that refuse to pay. Amongst those cities that refuse are several on the Bosporan Peninsula that were taken over.
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And for those also wondering, a map!

The world, as of c280 CE:

World270CE.png

Brown - Rome
Pink - Romano-British territory of the Albinii
Dark Purple - Antioch and Pescennian kings
Gold - Persia
Light Blue - Judea
Green - Extent of Christianised Arab tribes - no centralised leadership in any sense.
Light Purple - Kushan Empire and her Christianised client states along the western coast of the subcontinent.
 
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Sorry for the Extreme Break!

Sorry for resurrecting this in a sense - the TL was not dead exactly - I've just had a very, very, busy and distracting first half or so of the year, and I'm in the process of collecting the countless notes I have laying around to get this thing back on track.
 
I wish I had seen this thread sooner. It is a very interesting and plausible concept. I will be interested in where you take this.

While you have been mostly focused on St. Thomas, it would be worthwhile to explore the fates of the other apostles to see where they end up. Their fates would have an undeniable effect on how Thomas conducts his ministry and how Christianity is viewed by the local powers. You may be particularly interested in St. Bartholomew who is believed to have done ministry work around what is modern day Bombay.

I wish you hadn't killed Paul. I would have loved to have seen tensions between the minor Pauline Christianity and the massive Thomasine Christianity explored. That kind of a schism would have been fun.

What's the likelyhood of Islam If Arabia is majority Christian?

Close to zero. The circumstances that lead to the creation of Islam are not possible here.
 
Regarding this going again - it'll be a few days, at the least, before something comes together since I need to make sense of all the scattered stuff I have. Good news regarding this is that I do have the majority of my notes and maps and all that still around, so I don't have ot start from scratch, recreating everything based on what's published here.

As for Islam...as mentioned already, and stated numerous times in the thread, Mohammad may very well exist...but his role, if it's even important when the time comes, is going to be very different.

As for Paul and the Churches and everythign...there's still going to be a lot of fun as the Syriac, Asian (as in Asia Minor), Indian, and Arabian Churches all bump up against each other.

Now, to touch on St Bartholomew...I purposely never named him specifically actually, from what I can tell. To be honest, if you look hard enough in reality, you'll find rumours and stories about everyone going East. Also, given Bartholomew's death in Armenia, had he actually gone to India...he'd probably have stayed - as Thomas the Apostle did, given his bones are supposedly in Kerala and all. As for where/what Bartholomew did...just because he isn't directly named doesn't mean he wasn't present. If you so wish, it can be assumed he was amongst the approximately 500 that went with Thomas to the east, though he never really came into any importance as the shift of the Western Christianity took on a much more fractured nature - numerous characters we take for granted in one way or another are bound to fall through the cracks as each of these sects become very much niche religions, fulfilling very specific regional matters.

Though that does give me an idea regarding him and the Asian church...I might backfill some of that in due time.
 
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Regardless of which direction Christianity goes, the original 12 Apostles are going to have some importance. They are, after all, the original Christians. While, yes, there are stories linking most prominent figures in the Church to the East Bartholomew has a better claim than most. I imagine that some of the early Church fathers might try following Thomas after hearing about Paul's early demise. Bartholomew's presence is likely not plausible but it would be extremely interesting.

I have a bad habit of trying to cram obscure figures into positions of power. Bartholomew is among one of the most obscure apostles and having him (somehow) appear would be fantastic.

You are free to take this timeline wherever you want but I just wanted to show a possibility. I am enjoying what you have done thus far and will continue reading.
 
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