Pagan Europe, Christian Asia

Geredis

I'm currently contemplating a long-reaching timeline (c. 50AD to the present) that basically explores the following:

Europe remains countless varieties of loosely affiliated and related pagan faiths, and Christianity finds no home in Europe but instead a Christianity along the lines of the Syriac/Nestorian church basically runs rampant through Central Asia and takes a firm hold in India and China as well. Perhaps even a stronger but still regional Judaism that spreads into Syria and the rest of the Middle East, maybe down the Nile as well.

As I sort this out, I guess I'm wondering: how feasible do you think this is?

Where do you think a good Point of Divergence would be? Would something earlier than a moderated Jewish Revolt be necessary, or should that suffice, provided the response is different enough?
 

Gen_Patton

A good PoD would be more importance of St. Thomas and the Syrian church. From what I can remember St. Thomas was the only early apostle to go into Asia, going as far east as some coastal cities on the western shore of India.

If St. Thomas were able to create more unified and powerful churches in Syria, as opposed to flying all across Asia converting everyone he could get his hands on he could perhaps create a strong foot hold for the Church in the east. Later conversions, drawing from a powerful Syrian church could possibly create a trickle effect across Central Asia and into India. A more powerful eastern church could be brought about by other ways as well.

Non acceptance of Roman Gentiles until long after Jesus of Nazareth's death could possibly cause more internal conversions among the Israelite peoples (interesting butterflies here) and soon spread among more Semite peoples (Arabs etc.).

One of St. Thomas's seedlings in India could grow into a Buddhist style minority in Asia. Perhaps spreading to the Indonesian and other South East Asian peoples similar to how Buddhism spread to dominate China and Japan. While not accepted by the Hindu princes, who relied on the Hindu caste system to legitimize their rule (a form of divine monarchy) when Buddhism left India it flourished.


A third and more interesting proposition could be the conversion of certain nomadic groups, who filter their new found religion across Asia. Leading to an actual "Prester John" style nomad kingdom in modern Mongolia. (Am I the only one that thinks that Prester John sounds a lot like Chingiss Kahn?)

However the biggest problem with the spread of the Early Church east was political. The Arab kingdoms and many eastern kingdoms viewed the Romans as a threat. Converting to what they saw as a Roman founded religion would be politically risky, opening them up to attacks by their neighbors (AHHH! He wants to join the Romans!) and internal strife (AHHH! the prince wants to cede us to Rome!) etc.

Perhaps with a more autonomous Judea it could spread farther east without political barriers. One scenario could be that Christianity flourishes as a rebellion religion and the Christian-Jewish faction manages to kick the Romans out (at least for a little bit :(). Seeing the power of their new religion and the Gentiles can join clause, many eastern kingdoms that want to be free of Roman influence join.

In Conclusion, your idea is not only plausible but quite possible. All it needs is luck and different choices by the early church.
 
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Geredis

Glad to hear that this is indeed as plausible as I was thinking it would be.

I like all the ideas, and certainly something where St Thomas replaces Paul as the primary source of doctrine and follows the Buddhist model once it gets out of India. Regarding those initial conversions, I wasn't thinking of putting the seeds really amongst the nobility, but instead a conversion that spreads both to teh top and bottom from the middle, the Silk Road being the conveyor, merchants taking these ideas along, a few converting...and those coming in contact with them converting as well. It might mean that due to this mercantile heritage however that the monastic tradition might be less prevalent, but with roots in India and the already existing Buddhist ascetic tradition, there might just be a heavy influence as such. We'll see how this plays out I suppose.

Skokie - as much as I love Julian the Apostate as well, I just think that by the late 3rd Century, it's simply too late to try and put the cap back on Christianity for my purposes. Never mind that he just seems (from what I know of him) to be too much of an ass that no one really paid attention to, to really be a credible means to play out the point of divergence.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
You'll have to do something to get Christianity to spread more actively in Asia. IOTL in India Christianity formed a consensus with Hindu society- the Syrian Christians of India effectively formed a caste group of their own.

The thing is that at this time period, Hinduism is actively reasserting itself in South India- Buddhism is on the decline. It's not a very fertile theological ground for Christianity because it's running into a very vigorous Hindu revival.
 

Analytical Engine

You could get a Christian Persia without massive difficulty, which would encourage its spread into Central Asia, and possibly into northwest India (i.e. Afghanistan and Pakistan, and maybe into OTL India) and China too, if as a large community much like the Muslims are in China proper IOTL.
 

mrmandias

I think you can easily get a Christian Asia and a Pagan Europe, but I think it will be pretty hard for your pagan Europe to be a collection of unorganized, loosely affiliated faiths.

Classical antiquity was moving in the direction of a more coherent, more organized, more hierarchical faith that served as a basis for imperial unity regardless of whether that faith was Christianity or not.

Your most likely 'Pagan Europe' is some kind of Neo-Platonic church with strong elements of Emperor worship, Jupiter worship, or Rome worship and with a formally incorporated 'mystery' element.
 

Geredis

Mrmandias - After I put up the idea of a Pagan Europe, that was actually immediately where my mind went, to this Neoplatonic Emperor Cult kind of supplanting the highest of the polytheistic gods, where locally in each of the myriad religions, the Emperor is that highest being made incarnate on earth.

Now, I'm wondering, in Asia, with the Christians...do you think that Koine Greek (because I still assume that the earliest texts are still going to be written in the eastern parts of the Roman Empire before things really become unrecognisable from our timeline) will become a dead but utilised religious language amongst the eastern churches, or do you think that it'll very quickly be translated and the Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew be forgotten within a few decades?

And along those lines, when it comes to eastern names, do you expect that the Persians, Indians, Central Asians, and Chinese will take on biblical names as their own (localised for the most part of course)?
 

Philip

Donor
Geredis said:
do you think that Koine Greek (because I still assume that the earliest texts are still going to be written in the eastern parts of the Roman Empire before things really become unrecognisable from our timeline) will become a dead but utilised religious language amongst the eastern churches, or do you think that it'll very quickly be translated and the Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew be forgotten within a few decades?
Click to expand...

Translation will occur, but Greek will be preserved, and Aramaic (or at least Syriac) will be widely used.

And along those lines, when it comes to eastern names, do you expect that the Persians, Indians, Central Asians, and Chinese will take on biblical names as their own (localised for the most part of course)?
Click to expand...
Yes. Expect them to also use the names of their early converts.
 

Pachac

I imagine that the main issue against any spreading of Christianity into Persia was the extremely rigid stranglehold the Persian nobles held over Persia proper. Mesopotamia was probably majority Christian by the Muslim conquests, but western Persia like Fars, Hamadan, and so on were Zoroastrian.
 

RoyalPsycho

I tried something like this after I joined the site.
There are going to be a lot of problems with Christianising a lot of Asia. Persia will be fairly easy as Zoroastrianism was not really a mass religion though it will take a lot for the ruling classes to become Christians.
India has already been Hindu for several thousand years and Buddhism is becoming popular in the sub-continent at that time as well. It will probably spread through the North Eastern portion like Islam did but the Indian majority will probably remain what ever they were before.
China's also difficult. It is already a mix of differnt religions pinned together with a Taoist overlying principal. Christianity will probably spread there but it will take a lot to make it dominant and even then it will be Sinicized just like every other cultural feature that enters China.
You're best chance is Central Asia and Arabia. Central Asia will probably take to Christianity ATL like they did to Islam OTL (I personally like the idea of a Christian Genghis Khan analogue sweeping away everything in his path in the name of Christ). Arabia already had a substantial Christian population and is close to Judea the birthplace of the religion (this fact may lead to some very, very nasty wars in this timelines future).
All in all. Christianizing Asia is a very real possibility but don't expect it to dominate the Continent like it did Europe, Asia's too big, too diverse and above all too old.
 
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Geredis

I'm currently putting together the timeline, and as it stands, Thomas, after arriving in Kerala, finds him and his disciples moving north and west, into what was once Bactria, now the nascent Kushan Empire. Thus far, aside from converting some of the commoners in the hinterlands and in small villages and the like, there is a small community in Pushklavati (Peshawar), which I expect will catch the eye of the aging Kujula Kadphises to bring it to the attention of the upper classes, with a successor perhaps converting within a generation or two.

As for things, I've decided that it's probably best, RoyalPsycho, as mentioned, to just circumvent Iran, and maybe have Christianity encroach from both east and west as a Syro-Arabian church gets started.
 
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Flocculencio

Donor
Geredis said:
Now, I'm wondering, in Asia, with the Christians...do you think that Koine Greek (because I still assume that the earliest texts are still going to be written in the eastern parts of the Roman Empire before things really become unrecognisable from our timeline) will become a dead but utilised religious language amongst the eastern churches, or do you think that it'll very quickly be translated and the Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew be forgotten within a few decades?

And along those lines, when it comes to eastern names, do you expect that the Persians, Indians, Central Asians, and Chinese will take on biblical names as their own (localised for the most part of course)?
Click to expand...

What you want to do is to look at the Syrian Christians of Kerala- that'll give you a microcosm of the sort of societal developments you'll get.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

I think it is also possible the Slavs and Persians getting Christianized under their brand of Christianity along with a largely Christian Asia while the Germans and Western Europe have a religion of their own.
 

RoyalPsycho

Geredis said:
As for things, I've decided that it's probably best, RoyalPsycho, as mentioned, to just circumvent Iran, and maybe have Christianity encroach from both east and west as a Syro-Arabian church gets started.
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That's perfectly fine I was just explaining. I also said Persia was likely I mean there were substantial Christian populations throughout their Empire until Islam came along and then there were their Armenia subjects.

Also just a suggestion. The Imperial Cult of Personality in Rome (which is a bit like China's) is a good idea but there were already substantial Cult's to Isis and Sol Invictus. I think an interesting idea would be a divided Pagan Europe (for a few centuries anyway) with the Imperial religion in the South facing off against the barbarian worshippers of Woden or Thor to the North.
 

EdM

Geredis said:
I'm currently contemplating a long-reaching timeline (c. 50AD to the present) that basically explores the following:

Europe remains countless varieties of loosely affiliated and related pagan faiths, and Christianity finds no home in Europe but instead a Christianity along the lines of the Syriac/Nestorian church basically runs rampant through Central Asia and takes a firm hold in India and China as well. Perhaps even a stronger but still regional Judaism that spreads into Syria and the rest of the Middle East, maybe down the Nile as well.

As I sort this out, I guess I'm wondering: how feasible do you think this is?

Where do you think a good Point of Divergence would be? Would something earlier than a moderated Jewish Revolt be necessary, or should that suffice, provided the response is different enough?
Click to expand...

I think we would still have to contend with Islam and its evil offspring, radical suicidal Islam-psychosis. Like it or not, Mohammed will find himself in a cave somewhere and someone will say to him, "Write!" :D
 

EdM

mrmandias said:
I think you can easily get a Christian Asia and a Pagan Europe, but I think it will be pretty hard for your pagan Europe to be a collection of unorganized, loosely affiliated faiths.

Classical antiquity was moving in the direction of a more coherent, more organized, more hierarchical faith that served as a basis for imperial unity regardless of whether that faith was Christianity or not.

Your most likely 'Pagan Europe' is some kind of Neo-Platonic church with strong elements of Emperor worship, Jupiter worship, or Rome worship and with a formally incorporated 'mystery' element.
Click to expand...

And you are exactly right. It could very well develop as a faith similar to Catholic or Orthodox Christianity but the new religion could be called Invictism named after the most high god Sol Invictus with his only begotten son, Gaius Julius Caesar, who suffered and was crucified under Gnaeus Pompey, died, was buried and resurrected. :D

(Reality: Caesar was stabbed to death in Pompey's Curia under the gaze of the statue of Pompey on the 15th of March, 44 BCE. Two days later, Mark Anthony officiates over Caesar's funeral and exhibits his body in imagine on the frame of a tropaeum, that is, a simple right-angled cross like the kind you see in churches. And his real body was cremated. But the Romans did believe his soul resurrected.)
 
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