With a POD of 900 AD or later, how could we get get an Orthodox conversion of the pagan Baltic Prussians that preserves much of the old pagan customs as possible? Using what we know of the Lithuanian pantheon as a template, which gods could have their attributes transfer to Orthodox saints? How might the Orthodox tradition of religious icons might be adopted for prayer to (worship of) syncretic god-saints? How could Orthodox Christianity be used to unify the Old Prussians into a strong duchy similar to OTL Lithuania?
Orthodox 'Grand Duchy' of Old Prussia that preserves much of the pagan religion's customs?
- Thread starter cincpac overboard
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It's pretty hard and requires a large Orthodox wank, or Catholic screw, so that there isn't as much incentive to go Catholic. And then some more to help reduce the negative impact on traditional Pagan customs.
Do you think going Catholic is a better option to accommodate pagan traditions such as happened in other places (i.e. Virgin of Guadalupe)? Are their better saints in Catholicism for Christianizing old gods (St. Clement for the god of smithing)?
By 900 it might be too late - because by 1200, there's no incentive for them to go Orthodox - unlike the Lithuanians, who were heavily involved on the politics of Kievan Rus, the Prussians had little, if any, contact with the Russians - their closest Christan neighbours were all Catholic, which means you need a POD that makes at least Poland Orthodox, and for that you'll have to go all the way back to the time of Great Moravia...
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I proposed an Orthodox duchy because I wondered if the autocephalous nature of Eastern Orthodox churches might promote more syncretism with pagan Baltic traditions. Considering how readily OTL Christianity in general accommodated pagan imagery for Christmas and Easter however, I see this might be a moot point. Looking at the question of political unity, do you see any advantage Catholicism would have over Orthodoxy in the formation of a Prussian state in the 900-1200 AD time period?
It's hard to tell. The historical track record of Catholics for accomodating folk lore actuially isn't that bad (keeping in mind that anything close to incorporation is impossible) and I don't think the Orthodox ever did better. But the main point remains, there's really no reason for a ruler of "Old Prussia" to go Orthodox, rather than Catholic, unless some heavy change is made (and may well butterfly the whole question).
I think the opinions here a little bit too damning on the prospect. One way you could figure out an Orthodox Prussia is to have the Kievan Rus expand farther into Baltic territory. Not impossible, since the Lithuanians were subjugated and forced to pay tribute in the 11th century and then later Polotsk expanded deep along the Daugava River. Some more successes in keeping the Eastern Baltic region in line and reaching closer to Prussian territory, so that someone unifying Prussia, be it the Sambians or one of the other statelets, could adopt Orthodoxy.
Prussia also had contacts with the Orthodox Rus. Novgorod, Kiev and Prussia maintained trade relations and there was a Prussian trade colony in Novgorod in the late 12th century. Not impossible that some of those trade routes could have brought the Orthodox religion if there was more incentive for it.
Not sure on keeping the pagan customs though. The Orthodox don't have a better track records of keeping pagan faith customs after Christianization (how much pagan folklore has survived in modern day Russia, again? Not sure if it's considerably more than Polish or Lithuanian respective pagan customs.).
Prussia also had contacts with the Orthodox Rus. Novgorod, Kiev and Prussia maintained trade relations and there was a Prussian trade colony in Novgorod in the late 12th century. Not impossible that some of those trade routes could have brought the Orthodox religion if there was more incentive for it.
Not sure on keeping the pagan customs though. The Orthodox don't have a better track records of keeping pagan faith customs after Christianization (how much pagan folklore has survived in modern day Russia, again? Not sure if it's considerably more than Polish or Lithuanian respective pagan customs.).
I would argue that there is little to no pagan imagery in most popular depictions of Christmas or Easter, the only thing that springs to mind is just the name of the holiday for Easter, and that only exists in English, and several other germanic languages.
The majority of the accommodation in Christianity is closer to equating christian saints as equivalents of pagan deities, there has not been much in the way of syncretism as such, you see more pagan folk customs that survive not so much adding pagan rituals to the faith.
The best way to have knowledge of older pagan customs and rituals would be an Ireland conversion situation, with a dedicated peaceful missionary converting the area, then christians writing down the old customs.
Any OTL missionaries active in eastern Europe circa 900-1200 AD that were noted for their ethnographic work? Ideally I'd like to have as detailed an account of Prussian mythology as we do of Norse pagan beliefs. As far as national unity goes, I could see being an Orthodox outpost next to hostile Catholic neighbors being a driver for the process. OTL the Lithuanians managed to unify even while pagan, probably due to Crusading activity in the early 1200s. A hostile Catholic Poland launching raids into a Prussia undergoing Orthodox conversion could serve as the necessary catalyst.
If you want Baltic mythology to be as written down as Norse mythology, missionaries aren't the way to go. Much of what we know about Norse mythology comes from the sagas and Poetic and Prose Eddas, which were written not by missionaries but by Icelanders, well after Christianization, and not really as a means of preserving pagan customs (I mean, the Prose Edda literally starts with the biblical Genesis and then describes the Norse gods as Trojan kings who escaped to the north) but for various political reasons.
I'd say an *earlier* Christianization, maybe through successful missions to Prussia in the beginning of the 11th century, could be helpful. Though they'd have to be Catholic in this case. There really wasn't a literary culture in the Eastern Baltic - even after Christianization, in Lithuania's case - but maybe an earlier baptism and integration into Christian culture, without being subjugated under Poland, would allow the creation of, say, local chronicles that write down the tales of "ancient kings" (Prussian gods) for some political or cultural reason.
Why would the missions have to be Catholic? Was there no tradition of hagiography in the eastern Orthodox church that could be transmitted along with literacy itself to the Prussians? I would expect there to be a certain number of Prussian martyrs who eventually become canonized in the Orthodox tradition. Local hagiographies could be produced which could eventually lead to the production of idealized 'histories' of ancient kings that really are just humanized gods.
The missions to Prussia in the early 11th century were Catholic.
This is true OTL, but I'm looking at this through the lens of an ATL in which Kievan Rus expands to the border of Prussian territory, which you stated was not impossible since OTL the Rus managed to subjugate the Lithuanians. If Kievan Rus can stay in the Baltic long enough for repeated missions to the Prussians, I could see the creation of an independent Prussian Orthodox Church that could survive even if Kievan Rus has to retreat from the Baltic. The hostility of Catholic Poland to what it sees as land of semi-barbarian heretics could be the impetus for cooperation among the Prussian tribe that leads to the formation of a proto-state.