Optimize the RN for WWII

[CB13]

Conscript the unemployed in 1938 for compiling lists of skilled workers withheld from conscription and volunteering, and building FAA standard airfields, naval shadow factories and more large slips. Well fed building work will beef up the possibles. Welding courses.

Why not go with training that is dual purpose so if war does not arrive would still have civilian benefit?

Lower Tech
1. Tool & Die
2. Welding
3. Electrician
4. Agricultural Machinery Operator and Repair*

Higher-Tech
1. Metallurgy
2. Chemistry
3. Mechanical Engineering
4. Electrical Engineering
5. Agricultural Machinery Design*

*- The caveat for these is the more the UK can make itself self-sufficient in food production, the less it needs to rely upon importing from foreign sources

 

[Riain]

Thanks.

Sloop numbers are in lieu of the @ scattergun construction, so I'll factor the @ sloops into the savings list.

Money left unspent is deliberate, as I've still got to add the modified battleship and carrier programmes in the Rearmament period, plus the 'running start' of escort production, some more subs, auxiliaries, ye olde trade protection carriers and a few other odds and sods. That still leaves money for aircraft development, guns, cheat investment and the Misc category.

That's a big list, you'll be like the people who rock up to the checkout with a trolley full of booze, ciggies, dog food and baby food, and when the card gets declined put the baby food back! ;-)

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Thanks.

Sloop numbers are in lieu of the @ scattergun construction, so I'll factor the @ sloops into the savings list.

Money left unspent is deliberate, as I've still got to add the modified battleship and carrier programmes in the Rearmament period, plus the 'running start' of escort production, some more subs, auxiliaries, ye olde trade protection carriers and a few other odds and sods. That still leaves money for aircraft development, guns, cheat investment and the Misc category.

And the biggest cost, wages.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

hmmm think we could get a half dozen or so early LSTs or LSDs plus some lesser landing craft built with the metaknowledge and larger budget?

 

[Riain]

hmmm think we could get a half dozen or so early LSTs or LSDs plus some lesser landing craft built with the metaknowledge and larger budget?

I think there were some odds and ends between the wars anyway, they just need to be looked after.

 

[Jellico]

hmmm think we could get a half dozen or so early LSTs or LSDs plus some lesser landing craft built with the metaknowledge and larger budget?

To what end? Obviously there is a use for them, but they are relatively quick to build, and can be put on the US's tab like OTL. The main benefit of a UK landing ship program using hindsight is to set default standards to force onto the Americans. Eg floor plan for Centurions rather than whatever dinky 25 ton tank they are imagining in 1925.

 

[jsb]

To what end? Obviously there is a use for them, but they are relatively quick to build, and can be put on the US's tab like OTL. The main benefit of a UK landing ship program using hindsight

Even say a dozen LSTs would pull a lot of the BEF tanks & heavy guns off Dunkirk in a few days after they had finished completing an easy victory in Norway, as they would allow much faster deployment of a large force that could defeat the German forces in the north? They then go to Med and have a hard war on the flank of North Africa and holding Crete?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Even say a dozen LSTs would pull a lot of the BEF tanks & heavy guns off Dunkirk in a few days after they had finished completing an easy victory in Norway, as they would allow much faster deployment of a large force that could defeat the German forces in the north? They then go to Med and have a hard war on the flank of North Africa and holding Crete?

Pretty much that was my idea of what they'd do yes. Not sure what type of LST they'd end up looking like though. Might be expies of the USN's Newport class from the 60s or more like the classic WW2 design. As for when they'd get built thing just post/during the abyssinia crisis when the 3rd SL points to the fact that hey we might need to invade some Italian held Islands

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Money left unspent is deliberate, as I've still got to add the modified battleship and carrier programmes in the Rearmament period, plus the 'running start' of escort production, some more subs, auxiliaries, ye olde trade protection carriers and a few other odds and sods. That still leaves money for aircraft development, guns, cheat investment and the Misc category.

CONTRACTION
As recalled, at the beginning of the 1920s there was a sense that there would be a prolonged period of prosperity and that industries so long diverted into war pro- duction would thrive in peacetime production. The opposite would apply. In the shipbuilding industry work was plentiful throughout 1919 and into 1920. However, during the war, the cost of materials and labour had risen significantly and that plus a surplus of US mass-produced and German reparations merchant tonnage conspired to make shipowners cautious and shipbuilders increasingly anxious. By late 1920, a downturn in the global economy set in, prompting a period of economic stagnation that would last throughout most of the 1920s. The resulting low shipping freight rates not only discouraged shipowners from new ordering but also resulted in cancellations of existing contracts or requests for a slower rate of construction, for example, from Cunard. Increasingly, the view that warship contracts would be replaced with merchant work began to look highly optimistic. The loss of warship work coupled to the trade depression resulted in an industry with capacity that no longer reflected demand. For its part the Admiralty endeavoured to place what orders it had, mostly cruisers and submarines, across the Dockyards and private shipyards in an attempt to hold this strategic resource together. In 1925, agreement was reached between the private firms over the sharing of Admiralty work. However, this measure on its own was not sufficient to stave off the inevitable. So acute had the problems within the armament industry become, that the Bank of England had to intervene and undertake a process of restructuring aimed at creating a financially viable industry shorn of loss-making divisions but which nevertheless preserved crucial defence industry assets.

The Battleship Builders: Constructing and Arming British Capital Ships

How shipbuilders, engine manufacturers, and more united to build Britain’s Grand Fleet: “Superbly written…One of the best naval titles I have seen.”—Marine News The launch in 1906 of HMS Dreadnought, the world’s first all-big-gun battleship, rendered all existing battle fleets obsolete...

www.scribd.com

 

[Spencersj345.346]

on another note as promised just kicked off the USN equivalent for this thread

 

[CaptainCalvert]

True, my 'answer' to this problem is to use the less than ideal Mk VIII as the DP gun whenever possible from the mid-late 20s. The theory being its better to push forward with the DP gun principle than delay because the weapon itself isn't ideal. The experience gained from the Mk VIII will inform the replacement that will enter service widely/universally from the mid 30s.

I agree. A good enough 4.7" DP gun early on will (or should) lead to a better DP gun after some good exercises. There is always a possibility of an unsuccessful next step (eg 5.25") but even then the good enough 4.7 is available and at least moderately useful which allows improved fire controls etc to be explored. These will make a difference even if the new and improved DP gun is a bit rubbish.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Why not go with training that is dual purpose so if war does not arrive would still have civilian benefit?

Lower Tech

4. Agricultural Machinery Operator and Repair*

Higher-Tech

5. Agricultural Machinery Design*

*- The caveat for these is the more the UK can make itself self-sufficient in food production, the less it needs to rely upon importing from foreign sources

There was only one tractor to 5 farms at the start of the war (1939). That doubled by wars end (lend lease).

Lower tech 4 is a farmer with a drysdale.

High tech is a saddle maker in 1920.

Taste of War: World War II and the Battle for Food​

https://books.google.com/books?id=N...=2ahUKEwjr7Oebyar8AhX1glYBHVSYAyQQ6AF6BAgFEAI

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Pretty much that was my idea of what they'd do yes. Not sure what type of LST they'd end up looking like though. Might be expies of the USN's Newport class from the 60s or more like the classic WW2 design. As for when they'd get built thing just post/during the abyssinia crisis when the 3rd SL points to the fact that hey we might need to invade some Italian held Islands

I agree with the case for more or better landing ships. After all foresight is ' what if we needed to do this in future?' and looking at would have helped in Gallipoli and other landings. It may be as simple as 'The Glens will be fine' or maybe 'We really need four or five Glens' rather than complete new vessels.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Originally Uploaded Into Post 633
RN Building Programmes 1922-39 IOTL

​

Notes

1. The 1924-25 Estimates include 2 submarines and 2 cruisers for the RAN.
2. The Fleet Destroyers don't include the 2 A class ordered for the RCN or Tribal class destroyers ordered for the RAN & RCN before the outbreak of war, but they do include the 5 C class destroyers that were transferred to the RCN.
3. The Escort Vessels don't include the ships that were built for the RAN and RIN.
4. 1938-39 was to have been for 7 submarines, 2 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, 7 cruisers and 16 destroyers. However, it was "Rationed" to the above.
5. 1939-40 was to have been for 7 submarines, 2 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, 7 cruisers and 16 destroyers. However, it was "Rationed" to the above.
6. The "Rationed" programme for 1939-40 included 4 submarines and 2 cruisers that hadn't been ordered before war broke out and weren't built.
7. 1938-39 also included 3 fast minelayers and one aircraft maintenance ship (i.e. Unicorn).
8. 1939-40 also included one fast minelayer.

This is what I think the RN Building Programmes should be 1922-39 ITTL
The differences between OTL and TTL are beneath the totals.

Notes

1. The 1924-25 Estimates include 2 submarines and 2 cruisers for the RAN.
2. The Fleet Destroyers don't include the 2 A class ordered for the RCN or Tribal class destroyers ordered for the RAN & RCN before the outbreak of war. They do include the C class destroyers that were transferred to the RCN. Except a full flotilla of C class destroyers was built ITTL.
3. The Escort Vessels don't include the ships that were built for the RAN and RIN.
4. I haven't "Rationed" the 1938-39 Programme and have added 100 escort vessels,
5. I haven't "Rationed" the 1939-40 Programme and have increased the number of escort vessels from 98 to 100.
6. ITTL all the vessels in the 1939-40 Programme were ordered before war was declared.
7. 1938-39 also included 3 fast minelayers.
8. 1939-40 also included one fast minelayer.
9. Unicorn has been moved forward from the 1938-39 Programme to the 1936-37 Programme.

This Table Shows The Differences More Clearly

​

 

[marathag]

There was only one tractor to 5 farms at the start of the war (1939). That doubled by wars end (lend lease).

Lower tech 4 is a farmer with a drysdale.

High tech is a saddle maker in 1920.

Taste of War: World War II and the Battle for Food​

https://books.google.com/books?id=N...=2ahUKEwjr7Oebyar8AhX1glYBHVSYAyQQ6AF6BAgFEAI
View attachment 800174View attachment 800178

For all my advocating small steel wheel steam tractors for the Heer, this also goes for the UK.

Give up on Horses for agriculture, period.
It's Steam 1890s technology, and it beats medieval every time.
As in the US, frees up to a third of acres that had to be Fodder to feed the Horses, over to actual food production.
Plus gets all the Farmers (and their Sons)used to machinery.
So as in the US, would be able to maintain vehicle with less effort needed to train in the Armed Forces.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Putting Tommy Atkins back to work as the Depression is on.

To which the reply would be.

"Why are you putting prosperity down at the armoury?"​

"Why aren't you helping the miners, dockers and railway men?"​

(© Billy Bragg.)​

IOTL that wasn't far off what many British people thought IOTL. IIRC Tony Benn was whinging about it until the day he died.​

I was originally going reply flippantly by saying "So you're disbanding the Army" because Tommy Atkins is slang for the British common soldier, not the British common man. The only substitutes that I can think of are the Man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus and John Bull, which are better than Tommy Atkins but nevertheless don't sound right.

 

[jsb]

Unicorn has been moved forward from the 1938-39 Programme to the 1936-37 Programme.

With hindsight, could money be saved by making HMS Unicorn as a real CVE rather than as a warship that could be made by civilian yards? Was she not at 16,000t (and with 2 HACS etc) relatively big for a disposable cheap support ship and yet also not a first line fleet CV?

I would just order more early 10-14,000t 20-22Kn CVEs made to fully civilian specs even if you do maybe fill some holds with barrels etc for extra buoyancy and design with fewer hatches in the main bulkheads than in normal merchant ships and make the crew go up to higher decks to move forward and aft?

 

[marathag]

To which the reply would be.

"Why are you putting prosperity down at the armoury?"​

"Why aren't you helping the miners, dockers and railway men?"​

(© Billy Bragg.)​

IOTL that wasn't far off the of many British people IOTL. IIRC Tony Benn was whinging about it until the day he died.​

I was originally going reply flippantly by saying "So you're disbanding the Army" because Tommy Atkins is slang for the British common soldier, not the British common man. The only substitutes that I can think of are the Man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus and John Bull, which are better than Tommy Atkins but nevertheless don't sound right.

Yeah, I put John Bull first, then backed over to TA.
There is probable an equivalent to John Q. Public for the UK, but ???

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

With hindsight, could money be saved by making HMS Unicorn as a real CVE rather than as a warship that could be made by civilian yards? Was she not at 16,000t (and with 2 HACS etc.) relatively big for a disposable cheap support ship and yet also not a first line fleet CV?

We don't need to save money ITTL. I'm not sure that she was intended to be a disposable and cheap support ship or a first-line CV.

I would just order more early 10-14,000t 20-22Kn CVEs made to fully civilian specs even if you do maybe fill some holds with barrels etc for extra buoyancy and design with fewer hatches in the main bulkheads than in normal merchant ships and make the crew go up to higher decks to move forward and aft?

I've already suggested a British equivalent of the American National Defence Tanker Scheme where "Super Dale" type tankers with similar characteristics to the Cimarron class oiler would be built for the RFA and BP's tanker fleet. They would be designed with quick & easy conversion to trade protection aircraft carriers in mind.

When I write the next instalment of my aircraft carriers sub-thread I'm going to suggest that one conversion be undertaken in the period 1937-39 as a prototype which would be used as the deck landing training carrier which would allow Furious to be used as an operational carrier. I'm also going to suggest that a second tanker be converted 1937-39 to act as a depot ship for Queen Bee target drones as Argus was converted to an auxiliary in 1928 ITTL.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Yeah, I put John Bull first, then backed over to TA.

FWIW Jack Tar was the term for the common sailor and Brylcreem Boy was the equivalent term for the common airman.

There is probable an equivalent to John Q. Public for the UK, but ???

Joe Public, but AFAIK that's a post-war term. Joe Blogs is our equivalent of John Doe, i.e. a hypothetical average man.

And it should really be the working man rather than the common man. After posting Post 1,176 I thought of Andy Capp. Think of AC/DC's Brian Johnson. However, he wasn't created until 1957. While I'm at it I'll never forgive Seth MacFarlane for giving Capp a cockney accent.