Optimize the RAF/FAA for WW2

A long time reader on this site, but this is my first post so please be gentle with the less plausible ideas.

I've noticed that this type of thread seems to generate a lot of discussion.so thought we might try it for the RAF/FAA who in the case of the former, seemed to get the lions share of resources in the late 30's, but perhaps made some of the poorest equipment choices for strong ideological reasons. So lets see if we can fix those without spending much more money.

You are appointed Chief of Air Staff in April 1933 to replace Sir Edward Ellington and stay in post until 1942 at least. Unlikely I know, but Trenchard managed a full ten years in the job.

Unlike most of your colleagues at the Air Ministry you don't drink and have thus avoided the lead infused Kool Aid at parties that leads most of them to believe strategic bombing is the one and only way to win any future war. What decisions would you make about aircraft and strategy that would lead to a more effective RAF in the early years of the war, at least up to the outbreak of fighting with Japan?. As a bonus you get on well with the 3rd Sea Lord, who is another free thinker and co operate with him on improving the FAA's equipment over the same time period.

Here are some initial thoughts.

You recognise well before the war that the Fairy Battle is looking like a very poor strategic bomber option and no better at army support. Some are needed to train crews on modern equipment pre war, but orders after the first 500 are cancelled and these are mainly used for training and as target tugs. The army still needs support, so 500 Hawker Henley's are ordered for number 2 group instead. These prove more both useful in the Battle of France and later in the Middle East. Fairey still needs to build something while they work on more useful designs, so are asked to licence build more Hurricanes or Spitfires instead.

The Admiralty has a bit of a rethink about its aircraft needs and decided the Skua and Roc are both too slow for its fighter requirement and these are cancelled. A navalised Henley looks ok for the dive bomber role, but the requirement is now for a minimum 300 mph fleet fighter and The Fairey Fulmar proposal also looks too slow. Fortunately you have also gone luke warm on turret fighters and the RAF Defiant order is cancelled in 1938. Boulton Paul submit a proposal for a redesigned Defiant without the turret as a folding wing fleet fighter and as this can meet the speed requirement, it is put into production in early 1940 as the Boulton Paul Fulmar, re equipping all FAA fighter squadrons by the end of the year. Over a thousand are produced.

Early war evidence suggests Bomber Command is being wildly optimistic about its effectiveness. Until the cause can be established you conclude bomber production should be reduced, having decided that a much smaller force will still need to be defended against, but will consume far less of UK war production. As a result many German fields are spared destruction, a smaller number of German Civilians are killed and many highly trained air crews saved. Some bomber production is re directed to Coastal Command and the reduced demand from BC for improved Merlin engines means much better Spitfire models are available in 1941.

Rather than largely pointless fighter sweeps over France in 1941 you decide the Luftwaffe can be better fought on more equal terms in the Middle East and 500 extra fighters are directed there instead. This leads to potentially much better outcomes over both Crete and in North Africa in the first half of 1941

I'm expecting to back track to some other better decisions pre war in later posts, but I'd expect other posters might be much more informed on 1930's engine and airframe developments.
 
De Havilland Vampire allowed for BoF.....? With hindsight from 1933 not impossible if your Chief of Air Staff..... With A Mig 17 in development.....
 
Last edited:
Engines:
- even with the initial problems (that were pererfectly avoidable), Merlin is still the #1 engine choice past 1937
- axe the Exe, Peregrine and Vulture, have RR make a big V12 instead
- Napier - the 24 cyl engines took eternity to mature, so perhaps have them licence-produce the HS 12Y by mid-1930s, and make a shotgun marriage with Whittle's company?
- Bristol - 'militarize' the 2-stage supercharged Pegasus from the Type 138, mostly for the bombers; a 2-stage supercharged Merury for fighters; no Taurus
- Armstong-Siddeley: have them purchase licences from P&W for 2-row radials

Guns:
- develop the Vickers 0.50in HMG for aircraft use
- purchase one or two 20mm cannons' designs from Oerlikon - don't wait for Hispano
 

Ramontxo

Donor
And use the HS 12Y for the Whirlwind. Forget the oerlikons if the Japanese could do it so can Fabrique National. Make an order for Brownings in 20mm caliber. It fires in a close bolt (and so can fire through the Screw) two of them weight far less than 8 ,303 and firing close together doesn't have the coordination problems of the wing mounted ,303 that have to converge at a certain point. Also two on the Boston Paul naval fighter and even with the navalisation you would still save weight (the masive tower is off) and pushes forward the gravity center of the plane...
Engines:
- even with the initial problems (that were pererfectly avoidable), Merlin is still the #1 engine choice past 1937
- axe the Exe, Peregrine and Vulture, have RR make a big V12 instead
- Napier - the 24 cyl engines took eternity to mature, so perhaps have them licence-produce the HS 12Y by mid-1930s, and make a shotgun marriage with Whittle's company?
- Bristol - 'militarize' the 2-stage supercharged Pegasus from the Type 138, mostly for the bombers; a 2-stage supercharged Merury for fighters; no Taurus
- Armstong-Siddeley: have them purchase licences from P&W for 2-row radials

Guns:
- develop the Vickers 0.50in HMG for aircraft use
- purchase one or two 20mm cannons' designs from Oerlikon - don't wait for Hispano
 
You recognise well before the war that the Fairy Battle is looking like a very poor strategic bomber option and no better at army support. Some are needed to train crews on modern equipment pre war, but orders after the first 500 are cancelled and these are mainly used for training and as target tugs.
1933 is early enough to order prototypes of both the Battle as we know it and the twin engine version proposed by Fairey, which would be a real beast in the late 30's.


1678304119162.png
 
And use the HS 12Y for the Whirlwind. Forget the oerlikons if the Japanese could do it so can Fabrique National. Make an order for Brownings in 20mm caliber.

Each good 2-engined fighter produced = two good 1-engined fighters less.
So I'd rather have Westland making Spitfires already by late 1939, instead of winter of 1940/41. Now that we're at Spitfires, no BP Defiant, have BP make Spitfires instead.
Oerlikons were actually there in early 1930s, it will take another 10 years for a 20mm spin-off of the Browning action.

Also two on the Boston Paul naval fighter and even with the navalisation you would still save weight (the masive tower is off) and pushes forward the gravity center of the plane...

You probably mean 'Boulton Paul Defiant'? Thanks, I'd have Sea Hurricanes instead, preferably with beard radiator.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Each good 2-engined fighter produced = two good 1-engined fighters less.
So I'd rather have Westland making Spitfires already by late 1939, instead of winter of 1940/41. Now that we're at Spitfires, no BP Defiant, have BP make Spitfires instead.
Oerlikons were actually there in early 1930s, it will take another 10 years for a 20mm spin-off of the Browning action.



You probably mean 'Boulton Paul Defiant'? Thanks, I'd have Sea Hurricanes instead, preferably with beard radiator.
Yes but it is the name the OP has give to the fictional naval derivative. IMHO there is a place for a fast heavily armed bomber destroyer. Smaller than the Me 110 and heavily armed it wouldn't have to meddle with the fighters just fall into bomber formations with 4 20mm guns blazing... And I heavily doubt it would take 10 years to get an 20 mm Browning. The Japanese did it in far less time and it is an straightforward conversion (I am no expert and could easily be wrong).
 
Engines:
- even with the initial problems (that were pererfectly avoidable), Merlin is still the #1 engine choice past 1937
- axe the Exe, Peregrine and Vulture, have RR make a big V12 instead
- Napier - the 24 cyl engines took eternity to mature, so perhaps have them licence-produce the HS 12Y by mid-1930s, and make a shotgun marriage with Whittle's company?
- Bristol - 'militarize' the 2-stage supercharged Pegasus from the Type 138, mostly for the bombers; a 2-stage supercharged Merury for fighters; no Taurus
- Armstong-Siddeley: have them purchase licences from P&W for 2-row radials

Guns:
- develop the Vickers 0.50in HMG for aircraft use
- purchase one or two 20mm cannons' designs from Oerlikon - don't wait for Hispano

No intelligent Chief of Air Staff is going to spend scant funds in the 30s licencing foreign engines when the UK have multiple companies producing equivalents.

The Sabre is so far superior to the 12Y it's nonsensical to tool up Napier to make an engine that will soon be obsolescent, it also shows no understanding of the issues at Napier that slowed the resolution of the Sabres production issues.

The Sabre was a sound design, it's just that Napier were hopeless at scaling production up, this will affect the 12Y in equal measures, probably to the point that by the time it's available in numbers is far too low powered to be of any use. If you want Napier to build V12s then get them to make Merlins or the Allison V-1710

It would be better for our Chief of air staff to encourage English Electric to bypass Napier all together and instruct them to directly employ Frank Halford to deliver a 2000HP engine by 1938 ready for production, this is the best of both worlds as Halford was an engineering genius and EE had to skills and money to ensure that the Sabre could be produced in quantity with the required quality.

Bristol and Siddeleys are forced into partnership, Siddeley produce and develop poppet valve Bristol designs and Bristol work on Sleeve valve engines so we have a working Taurus and Hercules before the war breaks out. If neither company wants to co operate then get them Nationalized under national security as the country re arms.

The air ministry provides funds to construct a large high speed wind tunnels for research into all aeronautical aspects but with close attention to aerofoils as we transition to new higher speed aircraft. Research into Fuel Injection and Supercharging is to be funded and a shared development facility is to be built at Cranfield so all engines built for the RAF have optimized performance for the combat enviroment they are operating in.

Increase spending on Technical schools for Draftsmen and Electronics as the Uk was desperately short of skill people in both areas as we transitioned to a war footing.

A Whirlwind with two stage supercharged 1300hp Taurus engines is going to be very useful in the Battle of Britain, and a Fulmar with a Sabre is going to be a very capable Naval strike aircraft till well past the mid war point.

Thin wing Typhoon in action in early 41 with a developed Sabre over Europe allowing the transfer of Hurricanes and Spitfires to the Middle east and Singapore. MB3 will be the next aircraft coming into service in mid 41.
 
No intelligent Chief of Air Staff is going to spend scant funds in the 30s licencing foreign engines when the UK have multiple companies producing equivalents.

Any intelligent CAS will make a quick conclusion that an expensive and unreliable 16-cliner engine (Rapier) and 24-cylinder engine (Dagger) is a waste of money when compared with run-of-the-mill V12. He will also note that A-S Tiger is faulty-ridden engine.
Time is not a commodity that any money can buy.

The Sabre is so far superior to the 12Y it's nonsensical to tool up Napier to make an engine that will soon be obsolescent, it also shows no understanding of the issues at Napier that slowed the resolution of the Sabres production issues. The Sabre was a sound design, it's just that Napier were hopeless at scaling production up, this will affect the 12Y in equal measures, probably to the point that by the time it's available in numbers is far too low powered to be of any use. If you want Napier to build V12s then get them to make Merlins or the Allison V-1710

List of the years when HS 12Y was better than Sabre, pertinent to this thread:
1933, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41

The 1942 is a wash, since Sabre was as much of a threat to the RAF as it was to the Luftwaffe.
The V-1710 is too late for the British needs, and it is not as good as the Merlin. Yes, Merlin would've been a good engine for Napier to make.

Do you know why Napier was uable to manufacture Sabre in required quantity and quality?

It would be better for our Chief of air staff to encourage English Electric to bypass Napier all together and instruct them to directly employ Frank Halford to deliver a 2000HP engine by 1938 ready for production, this is the best of both worlds as Halford was an engineering genius and EE had to skills and money to ensure that the Sabre could be produced in quantity with the required quality.

What were the English Electric references for designing, debugging and producing high-powered aero engines before 1943?
 
As always with your answers, your happy to change history to fit your ideas, but seem to want to force others with ideas to stick to the original time line, you will notice that at no point did I suggest the Rapier or Dagger got any work at all.

HS12y is too small* and is a waste of time and money to make in the UK, just make Merlin's they have more capacity for development, you would probably do more for the war effort if you got Hispano-Suiza to make Merlin's to go in French fighters.

Napier relied on a highly skilled workforce to hand build engines, once the demand for engine production outstripped to capacity of the skilled men so that semi skilled or untrained workers were involved in production the quality issues started, in essence Napier lacked the institutional knowledge to set up a large scale production line, you would face the same issues with a HS12y and end up with a engine that produces low power and is unreliable.

English Electric had learned from Westinghouse the techniques of optimized production in the early 30s and the application of those mass production principals brought about the massive increase in quality and quantity of Sabre production from Napier in 1943, the engine it's self was sound and needed minimal debugging but the production processes were a mess, this is where EE skill set of engineering production would bring rapid results, the same as any mass process you take out the requirement for skilled workers and the variability that comes from human input.

EE were a broad engineering firm making everything from Steam turbines, large diesel engines to home appliances so they have as much institutional knowledge as they did when they too over Napier in 1943, Halford is there to provide the engine knowledge and EE the production skill set.

De-rated Sabers were available for testing in 1938 running at 1350hp in otl and 2000hp in early 1940, if we skip the air cooled H blocks then Halford gets to work on the Sabre 3 years earlier hopefully moving the dates above forward by 18 months to 2 years which can only be a good thing.

In the 1930s the UK government in not going to spend money on US or French licensed engine production, not when comparable UK designs are already in production such as the Bristol engines and the Merlin.

* EDIT: - HS12y isnt small, it's 36L, i was basing the numbers on the HS12X which is 26L, a Merlin is 27L for comparison.
 
Last edited:

Garrison

Donor
Well if you want a better FAA you have to go with the classic:
 
For the Fleet Air Arm the two main things that need to be done is to develop a homing beacon that can be operated by the pilot and determine that by 1939 all frontline FAA aircraft will be monoplanes. Other than that they need to increase the number of available aircraft so the carriers go to sea with full hanger decks on September 1st 1939.
 
The increased funding for research and training in electronics would hopefully bring the homing Beacon forward in development, though if you have a 1800hp to 2000hp engine available in 1939-40 then a Fulmar is not at the big disadvantage it was with a 1100 hp Merlin.

A Hurricane, Fulmar and Swordfish airgroup for a carrier in 1939 sounds world class to me.
 
The Swordfish is in my opinion only acceptable in 1939 if a monoplane replacement is due in 1940 instead of the biplane Albacore.
 
If I can provide any technical direction and get the Merlin 6-12 months more advanced I'd be delighted.
I'd provide direction that Bristol expand their design team. Even if it doesn't provide advancement on the main first line war engines there were a number of abandoned engine projects that could provide value in second line roles. It could provide value in first line engines too.
Id give instruction for Rolls Royce to rationalise its engine range Exe Vulture and maybe Peregrine could very easily be cancelled.

In terms of planes I'd kill off the gladiator, the defiant and the battle and replace all three with hurricanes and hurribombers.

In my first couple of years in my role I'd try and pursue any export sales I could. Any exports means its easier to convince manufacturers to go with larger facilities without needing the RAF to pay more.

The Swordfish is in my opinion only acceptable in 1939 if a monoplane replacement is due in 1940 instead of the biplane Albacore.
My favourite thing about the Swordfish is that it can take off on particularly short runways. If theres a 1940 replacement arriving it can transition perfectly from front line duties to escort carriers.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
The Swordfish is in my opinion only acceptable in 1939 if a monoplane replacement is due in 1940 instead of the biplane Albacore.
And yet an aircraft with good range and carrying enough ordenance and able to land in a small, slow deck is going to be needed in the Nort Atlantic. The only British aircraft in production the whole war...

download (1).jpeg



(Not my copy sadly, shall have to rebuy it)
 
I'd love the Monarch to be a viable engine but the Cast integral inlet and exhaust passages don't really look like they are designed for mass production?

It seems that to get high power in the late 30s you need 24 cylinders and the H block layout seems to have an inherent reliability bonus over X block engines. I suppose it's less strain on each crank shaft in a H lay out?
 
Top