Operation Sealion - intervention of Japanese or Italian navies.

[AdA]

firepower

I insert a Map of the gun emplacements in Gibraltar. The main AShip guns were 9.2'', wich would be hard pressed to keep modern BB away. The guns facing Spain were 6'', that would be outranged by anything from 155GPF onwards. Gibraltar may be bigger and rockier than corrigedor, but it was not so heavily armed, and the japanese had much lighter artillery, supported through jungle roads, than the Axis would use at the end of a railway line.
Give the germans some time to deploy railway guns, and to build some concrete piercing ammo for the heavy french raiwayguns in Vichy gun parks and they'll have those 6'' out of business in no time...

 

[King Midas]

Since this is a wild & woolly thread, can we have the Turkish navy join too?

As far as getting the IJN to Europe, it isn't impossible in the physical sense, but it is in the political meaning of the word. It would be done the way camel caravans cross the empty quarter.

Take three times as many camels as you need, load 2/3 of them with water, and put everything else on the remaining third. One third of the way across, when your camels are at the end of their water retention, water 2/3 of them, and butcher the other third. Two thirds of the way across, again when your camels are totally dehydrated, water half, butcher the other half, and finish your journey.

Similarly here (I don't know the actual logistics so you might need more than two tanker fleets, but bear with me). Your combat fleet sails, with two tanker fleets. When the fleet is running on fumes, take the fuel from the Short Range fleet, and stock up the rest of the fleet. Leave the Short Range fleet just enough fuel to get back to port - or worst case scenario, beach them for later recovery. Again, when the fleet has covered the next leg, empty the Long Range Tanker Fleet, and here you probably have to find a neutral port and have them interned for the duration. Now your combat fleet finishes the journey, and sincerely hopes that three plus separate fleets with no common training or doctrine can beat the odds.

Now as I said above, politically impossible. I cannot even conceive of what inducement Hitler would have offered to get this to come about.

Another question re Gibraltar. Would it be possible for the Italian navy to run the straight, and put into say Cadiz for repairs? It isn't like the British have a huge chain running from Gibraltar to Morocco, after all.

 

[AdA]

siege batteries,

as seen from the axis side

 

[The Red]

All in all, would be a mess, but i bet UK would win.

It would be more than a mess, it would be a catastrophe.

Italy has just lost the Med and any colonial hopes it had in Africa or the Middle East. Say bye-bye to Libya and Ethiopia, not to mention what's left of your merchant fleet. Mussolini may hang on to power but Italy's effectively out of the game.

Japan gambled with high stakes and lost everything. A sane regime would try and negotiate the best terms possible at this point, knowing the Japanese they'll fight until the Chinese//Soviets have reached Pusan and the British have reached Tokyo.

Germany will have had the Kriegsmarine crippled, the Luftwaffe battered and the Wehrmacht lighter by about 10 divisions, not to mention the economy of the Rhine in tatters with all those Barges at the bottom of the Channel. Invading the Soviet Union in 1941 is out of the question, leaving the Germans doomed to another disaster in 1942 when they'll face a prepared Red Army.

WW2 will be over by 1944 at the latest, 1942 in the Pacific.

 

[BlairWitch749]

the axis wouldn't have to use much seige artillery; a 1000lb bomb dropped by a stuka has much more tnt in it than a regular artillery shell; they planned to employ 26 battalions of guns in real life which would be more than enough to suppress the garrison, harbor, airfield and any well defended positions

the germans had good infantry for those sorts of operations too who could be equipped with all the necessary sub machine guns, grenades, flame throwers and explosive packs required

give the amount of air cover the LW could put over gibraltar; the British lose all surface positions by day 2 at the lastest, then it's just a question of how long it takes the germans to reach the water casemate areas which ends the game

 

[Alan]

Now as I said above, politically impossible. I cannot even conceive of what inducement Hitler would have offered to get this to come about.

The inducement would be the whole of Britain's Asian Empire. There would be no British fleet, no British industrial base, and no British army. India, Burma and Malaysia would fall like ripe plums, as probably would Australia.

As well as the combined weight of the three Axis navies, the entire German fighter force would be concentrated over the battle zone, unlike the Battle of Britain, resulting in the RAF being quickly fought to destruction, or their abandoning the area altogether.

 

[juanml82]

It would be more than a mess, it would be a catastrophe.

Italy has just lost the Med and any colonial hopes it had in Africa or the Middle East. Say bye-bye to Libya and Ethiopia, not to mention what's left of your merchant fleet. Mussolini may hang on to power but Italy's effectively out of the game.

If the axis is defeated - such a plan would be thought from the idea of winning. The question the Italians need to ask is: what's the center of gravity of the UK war effort? The midlands or Suez? It's clearly the midlands and, should this Sealion work, they won't have to worry about British attacks on Libya and Ethiopia because Britain won't be fighting anymore.

 

[AdA]

IJN Atlantic force

I'll play it first from my own rules, which are biased towards making it interesting more than making it plausible.
For the purpose of this exercise the Italians have taken Egypt in July 1940, (von Thoma maried the sister of an Italian colonel in Spain, became Italian by Hitler/Mussolini decree and led a revmped italian army using hundreds of great tanks ansaldo made after copying a BT5 captured in spain) this opens the suez.
Vichy France, Spain and Portugal are all on the Axis. Gibraltar was taken. The USA are totally neutral. The USSR is not getting involved. The RN keeps only a token force on the pacific and Indian oceans after the great losses in the Med.
Japan decides to send a force to the Atlantic. It's mission is to support the joint German/Italian/French blockade of Britain, now very effective with submarines, but soon to force a surface action and seal off Albion. The IJN deploys:
Nagato, Mutsu, Akagi, Kaga, Atago, Takao, Chokai, Maya, 12 Destroyers, 12 KD3/4/6 class long range subs, and the tankers Erimo, Siretoko, Ondo, Iro, Turumi, Sata, Siriya, Hayatomo and Naruto. They set off to Indochina, were they have French support, then use their tankers to made the long haul around India to refuel in a base the Italians have set in Somalia, proceed to the Axis controlled Suez, refuel in Alexandria and join the combined fleet.
They're there. The combine fleet leaves the Med to conduct blockading operations, and is meet by the royal navy.
The IJN and RN air wings will neutralise one another, neither proving decisive. The German force is sailing from the North sea and will no be engaged. The biggest gun battle since Jutland takes place and envolves (RN has lost ships on the Med and left a force covering the Germans)
axis BB: Nagato, Mutsu, Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Lorraine, Bretagne, Provence (Mers el Kibir batted away, von Thoma distracted the Brits), Littorio, Veneto (both brand new)
RN BB: Nelson, Rodney, KGV (brand new), QE, Barham, the surviving 4 R class. The BC are covering the Germans.
You can't beat this as a wargame!

 

[AdA]

A few notes

I left out the cavour and Duilio class BB to keep it fair, since I "sunk" 3 QE class. Another battle could be happening at the same time btw Hood, Renown and Repulse against schanorst, Gneiseinau and the two remaining pocket battleships. We can force Bismarck into being ready, as I did with the KGV, but the KGV is there to make things fair, and Bismarck would make the Anglo german battle very unfair...
Another option would be to take out the French mers el Kibir losses and use the rebuilt Italians.

 

[MattII]

I would explain how to use siege artillery to attack a fortress, but since that problem was solved in the XV century, and turned into an artform most famously by Marshal Vauban, I think that would be better done in the pre1900 forum...

Remember, you don't just have to deal with Gibralter, you have to deal with Force H as well. Oh, and moving transports through the Atlantic is dangerous considering that Germans has limited naval assets left (except submarines, which are of limited use against aircraft). Also, rail artillery is of severely limited use considering that Spain uses a rail gauge over 8" broader than standard.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm saying it wouldn't be easy.

 

[AdA]

Rail

Ever rode an international train? They had this cool wheel axles changing stations on the Spanish/French border. If it worked for the SudExpress you can surely adapt a few railway guns. But they're here mostly for fun and colour. Just the captured Skoda heavies would suffice.
Transports in the Atlantic? The only transports crossing the Atlantic on my post are British ones, and I don't expect many of them to make it, with all the german, Italian and French subs hunting them...

 

[The Red]

If the axis is defeated - such a plan would be thought from the idea of winning. The question the Italians need to ask is: what's the center of gravity of the UK war effort? The midlands or Suez? It's clearly the midlands and, should this Sealion work, they won't have to worry about British attacks on Libya and Ethiopia because Britain won't be fighting anymore.

They may think that but when the Regia Marina is burning wreckage off the coast of Cornwallthe British will realise that there isn't much danger to the Midlands any more.

 

[Garrison]

I'll play it first from my own rules, which are biased towards making it interesting more than making it plausible.
For the purpose of this exercise the Italians have taken Egypt in July 1940, (von Thoma maried the sister of an Italian colonel in Spain, became Italian by Hitler/Mussolini decree and led a revmped italian army using hundreds of great tanks ansaldo made after copying a BT5 captured in spain) this opens the suez.
Vichy France, Spain and Portugal are all on the Axis. Gibraltar was taken. The USA are totally neutral. The USSR is not getting involved. The RN keeps only a token force on the pacific and Indian oceans after the great losses in the Med.
Japan decides to send a force to the Atlantic. It's mission is to support the joint German/Italian/French blockade of Britain, now very effective with submarines, but soon to force a surface action and seal off Albion. The IJN deploys:
Nagato, Mutsu, Akagi, Kaga, Atago, Takao, Chokai, Maya, 12 Destroyers, 12 KD3/4/6 class long range subs, and the tankers Erimo, Siretoko, Ondo, Iro, Turumi, Sata, Siriya, Hayatomo and Naruto. They set off to Indochina, were they have French support, then use their tankers to made the long haul around India to refuel in a base the Italians have set in Somalia, proceed to the Axis controlled Suez, refuel in Alexandria and join the combined fleet.
They're there. The combine fleet leaves the Med to conduct blockading operations, and is meet by the royal navy.
The IJN and RN air wings will neutralise one another, neither proving decisive. The German force is sailing from the North sea and will no be engaged. The biggest gun battle since Jutland takes place and envolves (RN has lost ships on the Med and left a force covering the Germans)
axis BB: Nagato, Mutsu, Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Lorraine, Bretagne, Provence (Mers el Kibir batted away, von Thoma distracted the Brits), Littorio, Veneto (both brand new)
RN BB: Nelson, Rodney, KGV (brand new), QE, Barham, the surviving 4 R class. The BC are covering the Germans.
You can't beat this as a wargame!

Sorry but I don't see much of a game where you don't intend to let one side play. There is simply no way the US is going to allow a scenario in which Japan takes all the British territories in the Pacific, it would go entirely against their national policy. They will intervene if only in the Pacific to protect those colonies. You've simply decided that anything that works for the British doesn't happen and anything that helps the Axis is a given without offering any rationale. This was an implausible but entertaining idea at the start but you seem intent on actually making it ASB.

 

[Hkelukka]

Assuming for some reason say, 1/3rd of all axis naval assets and 2/3rds of aerial assets, specifically the best naval and aerial assets directed in 1940 after the fall of france, against UK, with a pod in late 1930's that just guarantees nothing more than that both Jap and Italy are onboard with sending the agreed upon fleet + what is required to make it to the closest pro-german port in the atlantic.

How this happens i dont care, because its relative to the write and there are a million ways to pull it off.

Once this happens. I would estimate that the axis would probably simply instutute a blockade of the entire UK and try to force a large naval engagement on Axis terms near Axis air cover and use U-Boats to monitor any and all UK naval movements near any major naval bases.

That way the UK either deploys in force to break the blockade, or starves.

Once starvation is close they would try anyway before surrendering so lets assume that the UK will pre-empt and not allow themselves to be surrounded like that.

Next would be either before the fleet assembles (in transit) or before they are re-armed (while in port and well defended but at least before most of the ships are re-armed or refuelled)

Waiting until the axis are at their height would be stupid.

So.

My estimate is that the Japanese cant get to europe with such a fleet before the UK hits them en route. And the Italians cant really get to the Atlanic without Gib.

So.

What would happen is After FoF the Germans immediately start sieging gibraltar. Once that happens the Japanese fleet assembles and sets sail for europe. They should arrive in about time for the Italian fleet to break out of the med.

The Italians and the Japanese shoudl leave enough naval and aerial assets behind to counter any immediate push by the allies when they move. It would mean that the signal intelligence for the allies would probably indicate that large naval preparations were udnerway but not sure where so they would deploy all over the world. And redeploy home as the plan becomes evident.

The plan would be for italy and Japan to risk everything to finish the war quickly. Italy would get Allies africa, Japan would get entire Asia and Germany would get europe and SU.

So. I propose the UK tactic would be, in the unlikely event that the above mentioned situations would happen.

1. Hit the Japanese fleet somewhere in the South Atlantic.

2. Redeploy faster units from all non isles territory to the isles as soon as axis plan becomes obvious (sometime after the Japanese Fleet passes southren india and keeps heading further south).

3. All units that cant be redeployed to europe should be deployed for use against Japanese underprotected shipping and assets.

The Italian war entry would be delayed until the battle for Gib is well underway, and co-incides with the recall of the Italian shipping and a defence only posture on all colonies unless excellent opportunities arise.

Italians would probably have about 2-3 months before all of africa falls and the Japanese maybe 6-9 months after defeat before they are defeated and the germans probably 2-3 years.

Japanese and Italian declarations of war should happen at the same time and roughly when the Japanese fleet is between India and South africa, or further along if possible.

So what would happen to the Japanese-UK fleet engagement in the atlantic, keep in mind i'm assuming about 1/3rd of the whole IJN + neccesary "camels" with full military prepardness and anything else you can justify that the IJN would bring with them. Not sure how much fleet assets the UK could risk moving to the south atlantic after FoF.

And if the japanese make it through despite the UK resistance, or the UK chooses not to resist in force there. What strategy would the Axis-UK fleets adapt? Would the Germans actually go for sea-lion or would they attempt a full blockade now or something else entirely?

 

[Grimm Reaper]

A million ways for the IJN to reach occupied France at this time?

How about none at all based on logistics, fuel and tanker requirements and such minor details? They had to take extreme and risky measures just to get to Pearl Harbor more than a year later when the IJN was stronger...like packing destroyers with drums of fuel...

 

[Snake Featherston]

Japan's contributions would be something like its winter 1941-2 offensive, without the Pearl Harbor strike. It doesn't have anything like the logistics to circumnavigate as would be required here unchallenged.

 

[CalBear]

the axis wouldn't have to use much seige artillery; a 1000lb bomb dropped by a stuka has much more tnt in it than a regular artillery shell; they planned to employ 26 battalions of guns in real life which would be more than enough to suppress the garrison, harbor, airfield and any well defended positions

the germans had good infantry for those sorts of operations too who could be equipped with all the necessary sub machine guns, grenades, flame throwers and explosive packs required

give the amount of air cover the LW could put over gibraltar; the British lose all surface positions by day 2 at the lastest, then it's just a question of how long it takes the germans to reach the water casemate areas which ends the game

When you can get it into position, super heavy artillery, at least in the pre guided weapon era is far more effective than bombing when used against fortifications. Once you get a gun on target it will hit pretty much the same spot as until you wear out the barrel (or liner). That was what happened on Corregidor, the Japanese bombing did some damage, but it was the 240mm & 149mm guns that really flattened the defenses (one estimate is that the Japanese were hitting the isand with more than 10,000 shells a day, with as many as 16,000 hitting the day before the landings). It would have taken the U.S. 8th Air Force (in 1945) a month to hit the defenses with that many bombs (as you know, during Overlord the bombers missed France completely when they went for the defenses at Omaha).

 

[CalBear]

A million ways for the IJN to reach occupied France at this time?

How about none at all based on logistics, fuel and tanker requirements and such minor details? They had to take extreme and risky measures just to get to Pearl Harbor more than a year later when the IJN was stronger...like packing destroyers with drums of fuel...

And they would have had to go the LONG way, no cutting through Suez or Panama.

 

[Snake Featherston]

And they would have had to go the LONG way, no cutting through Suez or Panama.

With the same total lack of logistics as per OTL......

Italy *could* do more in theory, but Japan's WWII Navy circumnavigating the world unchallenged in a war setting is a good version of a Crack!TL.

 

[Hyperion]

I'll ask again.

Could a moderator please move this thread to the ASB section.